Too many players

[damo]

I had a rather controversial game in a sevens tournament in the weekend. (Blue v White)

Early in the game I had sent off one of the blue team for a shocking spear tackle off the ball, so they were down to 6.

Anyway, with half-time approaching White started a move that eventually resulted in a try, after the hooter. About 20 seconds before the try was scored I heard frantic complaints from the (Blue) sideline that White had 8 players on. Not having come down in the last shower I was skeptical of this claim, but after awarding the try I turned around and did a quick head-count of the White team; sure enough, they had 8 players on.

Now, I went through my memory bank and thought of what the law said to do in such situations; I ended up sticking with the try and awarding Blue a penalty at half-way (even though I felt like a right goose).

Now was that decision correct? I asked the head of referees who was there and he said I should have disallowed the try and awarded a penalty at halfway to blue.

The lawbook is slightly ambiguous:

3.2 TEAM WITH MORE THAN THE PERMITTED NUMBER OF PLAYERS
Objection: at any time before or during a match a team may make an objection to the
referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. As soon as the referee knows
that a team has too many players, the referee must order the captain of that team to reduce
the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered.
Sanction: Penalty at the place where the game would restart.

(My emphasis)

Now the issue I am having is that I don't know whether I should go back to the score at the time I knew that there were 8 players on, or to the time they objected (moments before the try). Also, would it matter that it was the sideline that made the initial objection, not someone on the field (ie it wasn't until after the try had been scored that someone in the white team objected.


What is the standard protocol for situations like this?

 

[Taff]

I seem to remember that the onus is on the teams to make sure that the numbers are correct, although obviously it's in our interest to check them too. After all, we're the ones the crowd and teams will blame regardless of what the book says.

I do know that it's a PK offence, and the mark is where play would restart.

It happened to me once in an U16 girls game. Red scored a try which I gave, but in fairness the home coach shouted across "Ref - No try. We've got too many on the pitch". It turned out that an enthusiastic sub had run on without me knowing; they were winning quite comfortably, so he was feeling generous. I disallowed the try and after explaining to the captains why the try was disallowed, awarded a PK to the opposition at the middle of the half way line because that's where play would have restarted if the try had stood. Nobody complained.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Standard protocol - is there one?

I think with hindsight and given I heard the cries about "8 players" I would have blown to stop the game when the "try" was scored. Done the head count. Based on 8 on the pitch for White = No try. A complication is that the call came from the side - I'm not sure about this? Is there a definition of what constitutes a team? If the referee was the first to notice then it would be a moot point? Or is it for the teams to sort number of players?

So no try and PK to blue. But where?

Do you treat it as held up? So PK to Blue on 5m?
Do you treat it as take in in goal by attackerss? PK to Blue on 22?
Do you treat it as a "try" with no points? PK to Blue on halfway?

The more I think about it I'm not entirely sure there is a correct answer! I wait to be persuaded one way or t'other.

 

[didds]

A complication is that the call came from the side - I'm not sure about this? Is there a definition of what constitutes a team?

indeed... and what if you subsequently found out it was a spectator that shouted and not the coach/waterboy/physio?

So no try and PK to blue. But where?

Do you treat it as held up? So PK to Blue on 5m?
Do you treat it as take in in goal by attackerss? PK to Blue on 22?
Do you treat it as a "try" with no points? PK to Blue on halfway?

I _think_ you could disocunt the half way line PK as that would only be the place of restart if a try HAD been scored.

I'd be leaning towards a 5M out PK using a sort of "run into the referee and he had tio blow the whistle" line of reasoning. But I won;t defend it strongly!

didds

 

[The Fat]

Standard protocol - is there one?

I think with hindsight and given I heard the cries about "8 players" I would have blown to stop the game when the "try" was scored. Done the head count. Based on 8 on the pitch for White = No try. A complication is that the call came from the side - I'm not sure about this? Is there a definition of what constitutes a team? If the referee was the first to notice then it would be a moot point? Or is it for the teams to sort number of players?

So no try and PK to blue. But where?

Do you treat it as held up? So PK to Blue on 5m?
Do you treat it as take in in goal by attackerss? PK to Blue on 22?
Do you treat it as a "try" with no points? PK to Blue on halfway?

The more I think about it I'm not entirely sure there is a correct answer! I wait to be persuaded one way or t'other.

I share your confusion.
What if when you heard the call of "8 players" you took note of where play was at that time, eg; white attacking centre of pitch and 30 metres out from blue goal line, and allowed play to continue to next stoppage so you could then check numbers for yourself? In this case that would be the try being scored however, before awarding the try do the head count. If white has eight players, disallow the try and go back for the PK centre field 30m out.
Of course the only problem would be if the white coach dragged a player off as the try was being scored. White may have already gained an unfair advantage by that stage but when you do your head count the numbers are correct.
I tend to think that you would have to allow play to continue if a try was likely just incase the numbers were always correct.

 

[OB..]

The player must have come on illegally during play.

It is unrealistic to expect you to do a head count during play, so you didn't actually know about it until after the try was scored. The extra player might have been irrelevant.

I think the decision can be justified, but the position is indeed tricky.

 

[crossref]

Let's think about also - what should the blue TEAM have done?

when they heard the cries from touchline should they have stopped playing in order to bring this to your attention?
but if they had stopped playing would you have blown your whistle? would it make disallowing the try any easier?


presumably they also weren't really certain how many whites were on the pitch either.

 

[Taff]

Let's think about also - what should the blue TEAM have done? When they heard the cries from touchline should they have stopped playing in order to bring this to your attention?

I think they should play to the whistle. :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

so do i -- but it means it can't really be the team's responsibiklity to minor numbers, if there is nothing they can do.
even if they SAW an xtra person come on ... they mst keep playing?

 

[Taff]

so do i -- but it means it can't really be the team's responsibiklity to minor numbers, if there is nothing they can do.
even if they SAW an xtra person come on ... they mst keep playing?

Fair point, but the chances are that you will only become aware of it when the ball is dead. I've seen it happen twice; one happened to me when I awarded a try (only to cancel it) and the other happened just before a scrum at a game I was TJing. While play is going on, the chances of any of the players noticing is slim because frankly, counting the opposition is the last thing on their mind.

 

[crossref]

in sevens I can imagine a team noticing eight players in open play
- not so many people
- lots of one-to-one marking in sevens ...... my man! my man! my man! my man! my man! my man! my man! WTF?

 

[TheBFG]

I'm with The Fat (not sure i'd have had the wits about me to do it), call time off, do the count, too many PK where you where first aware of a situation, not too many, try!

Glad it was you in the middle damo!

 

[MrQeu]

Noting how many players there are is quite difficult once the sport gets bigger on whenever there are less referees/umpires.

AFAIK in basketball, football and handball anything that happened before the ref (or qualified assistant) notices that there are too many players (i.e. does a head count, sees the player entering the field) remains valid. That is because he/she can't assure the precise moment of the player entering the field, just that he was on the field at the moment he/she noticed. Rugby LOTG seems to me to follow this same insight.

You didn't know there were too many players until you did the head count. You could be suspicious about it 'cos the other team argued, true, but would you call for any other suspicious offence you were not sure?

 

[Pinky]

Law makes it clear it is up to the team to object, so if they are to protest, I presume it is something the ref has to allow? Not sure the ref would have time to check. Happy with your decision, Damo.

 

[OB..]

Law makes it clear it is up to the team to object, so if they are to protest, I presume it is something the ref has to allow? Not sure the ref would have time to check. Happy with your decision, Damo.

The law specifies the maximum number of players and also says the referee must apply the all the laws fairly. He cannot duck this issue if he notices it first.

If a team objects, I see no obligation on the referee to stop play to count. What if the team is wrong?

 

[Adam]

If a call is coming from the sidelines during open play then I'm not going to hear it. I'd have just carried on and done what you did. No one ever talks to me during play (unless it's for things like, "is it out ref") so I cannot guarantee that I will process it.

 

[crossref]

If a call is coming from the sidelines during open play then I'm not going to hear it. I'd have just carried on and done what you did. No one ever talks to me during play (unless it's for things like, "is it out ref") so I cannot guarantee that I will process it.

I find the same - that most stuff from the side is white noise, normally easy to filter out, and you don't really process.
but .. but .. th subconscious is always listening a shout life 'ref head injury' somehow penetrates. I think shouts of eight players on the pitch are so unusual that you might well hear it, and have to decide to ignore it, if you know what I mean.

you can't rely on a shout from sidelines, but if lots of people are shouting 'eight players' in real life there almost certainly are eight players, but you pretty much have to ignore it anyway :-(

 

[B52 REF]

damo -in law you were correct but not spotting white now had 2 extra players???(or quick count of overlap when heard the sidelines?) talk about missing the gorilla on the pitch :holysheep: hope you bought the beers after.

 

[damo]

damo -in law you were correct but not spotting white now had 2 extra players???(or quick count of overlap when heard the sidelines?) talk about missing the gorilla on the pitch :holysheep: hope you bought the beers after.

Well to be fair it was Blue that was down to 6, so 8 on the white team had only 1 extra player. I did feel like a goose though, going back to halfway for a penalty after the siren had sounded, so maybe a beer or two should have been on me.


So the consensus is basically that I got it right? You don't disallow a try that was scored if you subsequently find out there were 8 players on?

 

[Na Madrai]

I recently had a run out for the B'ham Irish in a charity match.

The referee failed to turn up on time so I officiated for the first ten minutes or so until he arrived - he was no more than eighteen years old and had come by 'bus. After he had changed, I swopped places with him, donned a BI shirt and then sneaked on the pitch behind his back. I played for approx. 15 minutes before the referee's father, standing on the touchline, informed his son at a break in play, whereupon he had the captain of BI send one of his players off (me) and restarted with a PK at the point where the restart was to occur.

I thought, and informed the referee after the game, having bought him a drink and apologised, that he had treated the situation correctly, in my opinion. Anyone interested in other stories of this nature, and how referees in differing countries treat occurences like this, let me know and I will start a thread for your amusement.

NM