Touched in flight

[BCH24]

May I have your views on this please?

U14 school match.

Blue is attacking and are five metres out from Red try line.

Red turnover the ball, and pass it back, over the try line towards the dead ball line. Red kick to clear their lines. Most of red are in front of the kicker. Blue touch the ball in flight, it balloons up and is coming down, inside the 22, about 15 metres from the try Line.

Blue player reaches up to try and catch the ball above his head as it falls, only to parry it backwards over his head straight into the arms of the very lazy Red prop wandering back. The Red prop instinctively catches it as he can't react quick enough to do anything else.

is Red prop onside or offside?

 

[Dickie E]

Onside. The touch in flight has put him onside. We would consider that a charge-down (albeit a fairly unsuccessful one).

Similar (but better) happened to me years ago back in my playing days (I was not a very good player).

Play had gone deep into opponents' territory and I found myself in their in-goal. Opponents kicked ball back up to halfway-ish and one of my team-mates caught the ball and kicked it back. Bugger me if it wasn't touched in flight by one of their players and ball fell nicely into my arms for a try

 

[The Fat]

Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.

 

[Taff]

Red prop was played onside when the ball was "intentionally touched" / touched in flight by Blue.

11.3 Being put onside by opponents
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

The problem you will get when this or ricochets happen is that everything happens bloody fast; so you need to get it clear in your own head. Personally I find it useful to verbalise it (eg "Touched in flight. Red all onside") but some don't like it. It's mainly for my own benefit, but if the players benefit as well ... everyone's a winner. :biggrin:

 

[didds]

Just for clarity though, touching in flight doesn't "save" the 10m law?

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

Just for clarity though, touching in flight doesn't "save" the 10m law?

didds

Yes and no

[LAWS]LAW 11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10M LAW
(f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges
down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre
line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and
the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an
opponent but is not charged down.[/LAWS]

If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are.

 

[Dickie E]

If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are.

Cue 10 million post thread on what the difference is between a charge down and a non-charge down

 

[Ian_Cook]

Cue 10 million post thread on what the difference is between a charge down and a non-charge down

Well, my old mentor at CRFU (Laurie Mahoney) had the best answer to that I have ever heard

"If the player who made contact with the ball wasn't attempting to prevent or block the kicker from kicking, then it wasn't a charge down"

He also used to say

"if the player who touched the ball was reacting to the flight of the ball and not the action of the kicker, then it wasn't a charge down"

 

[Paule23]

Well, my old mentor at CRFU (Laurie Mahoney) had the best answer to that I have ever heard

"If the player who made contact with the ball wasn't attempting to prevent or block the kicker from kicking, then it wasn't a charge down"

He also used to say

"if the player who touched the ball was reacting to the flight of the ball and not the action of the kicker, then it wasn't a charge down"

This is very good, but I'd add a charge down results in the ball going towards the kickers goal line, a ball touched or unsuccessfully charged down​ may change direction but will continue away from the kickers goal line.

 

[DocY]

Could he have been loitering?

 

[didds]

Could he have been loitering?

That is what I was meaning when I enquired about the 10m law , but Ian explained

If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are

So a kick, touched in flight by an opponent that continues towards the oppo DBL can be played by a kicker's teammate even if he is standing right beside the opponent that wold otherwise have caught it (and was standing there initially etc etc ).

I confess until ian corrected me I was pretty sure this was still offside under the 10m law.

didds

 

[Dickie E]

9,999,996 to go ! epper:

 

[crossref]

Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.

this is the bit that concerns me --

if there is a ruck, and a red prop is 20m offside (having a breather,say)
- red #9 executes a box kick
- does a touch from blue really put the prop onside ? I don't think so.

 

[Ian_Cook]

This is very good, but I'd add a charge down results in the ball going towards the kickers goal line, a ball touched or unsuccessfully charged down​ may change direction but will continue away from the kickers goal line.

Nope.

There is no Law that imposes any restriction about the direction the ball travels after it is charged down

[LAWS]LAW 12 DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is a knock-on.

If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent’s hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is not a knock-on.

EXCEPTION
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.[/LAWS]

I have seen charge-downs where the ball has deflected to left or right and behind the charger. Its still a charge down. The ONLY players that can be offside after a charge down are teammates of the player who charged the ball down.

this is the bit that concerns me --

if there is a ruck, and a red prop is 20m offside (having a breather,say)
- red #9 executes a box kick
- does a touch from blue really put the prop onside ? I don't think so.

Is that player really offside at the ruck if

a. the ruck is over, AND
b. his teammate has kicked the ball, AND
c. an opponent has intentionally played the ball.

Sounds to me like you are subscribing to browner's ludicrous "player is always offside" theory. I hope not!

Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

 

[DocY]

That is what I was meaning when I enquired about the 10m law , but Ian explained

So a kick, touched in flight by an opponent that continues towards the oppo DBL can be played by a kicker's teammate even if he is standing right beside the opponent that wold otherwise have caught it (and was standing there initially etc etc ).

I confess until ian corrected me I was pretty sure this was still offside under the 10m law.

didds

At the risk of starting an argument, I'm not sure that that's the case. If you're loitering you specifically can't be put on side by the actions of an opponent, whether they were within 10m or not. In fact, IIRC, the loitering law was in place before the 10m law.

 

[crossref]

Sounds to me like you are subscribing to browner's ludicrous "player is always offside" theory. I hope not!

Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

here's the Law
[LAWS]
11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onsid[/LAWS]e.

so there's the answer - he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.

 

[The Fat]

this is the bit that concerns me


Your scenario is probably more one of loitering.
For me, a player must be making an effort to get back onside. If the player is just milling around, sucking in the big ones and making no effort to even walk back to an onside position, that player is loitering and is liable to sanction.

11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

There is a particular reason I made my previous comment/post,

Originally Posted by The Fat

Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.


11.8 has some quite specific wording and would seem to be dependent on who wins possession from the last ruck. This is the part I want people to consider and decide if 11.8 could/could not be applied to the OP.

11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:

Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.

 

[Ian_Cook]

here's the Law
[LAWS]
11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onsid[/LAWS]e.

so there's the answer - he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[DocY]

Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

No, but he has to make an effort to get back on side. If he's making an effort and the kick is half charged down, no problem, but if he's not making an effort I'll treat that as loitering.

 

[crossref]

You didn't answer my question.

I did.
He remains offside until an an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.


and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play