Two man lineout - Law 19.8 (b), (i), (k)

[Greig]

Blue and Red form a lineout, Blue throwing in.

Blue has two line-out players, and a receiver, and Red matches.

The Blue receiver steps into the lineout and jumps, being supported by the two existing line-out players. Red does not have time to match actions and is unable to form a lifting pod.

The Blue line-out thrower runs infield and receives the ball from the line-out.

Legal? Sanction?

If Red had placed 3 players in the line-out and no receiver prior to the Blue receiver stepping into the line-out, and Blue throws in to a 2 man line-out, has Red infringed?

 

[Drift]

Has the ball left the hooker's hands before the halfback joins?

If yes then play on. If not FK against blue for joining the lineout before the ball is thrown.

 

[Greig]

Drift,which law(s) disallow the receiver from joining the lineout, whether it be before or after the ball is thrown?

 

[smeagol]

Law 19.8.i
Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.


This covers it.

 

[RobLev]

Blue and Red form a lineout, Blue throwing in.

Blue has two line-out players, and a receiver, and Red matches.

The Blue receiver steps into the lineout and jumps, being supported by the two existing line-out players. Red does not have time to match actions and is unable to form a lifting pod.

The Blue line-out thrower runs infield and receives the ball from the line-out.

Legal? Sanction?

If Red had placed 3 players in the line-out and no receiver prior to the Blue receiver stepping into the line-out, and Blue throws in to a 2 man line-out, has Red infringed?

Answering the second point: Yes, Red has infringed - Law 19.87(b) and (c)

[LAWS] (b) Maximum. The team throwing in the ball decides the maximum number of players in the lineout.

(c) The opposing team may have fewer lineout players but they must not have more[/LAWS]

The receiver is a participating player, but is not a lineout player.

 

[Dixie]

Law 19.8.i
Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.


This covers it.

This. And the lineout commences once the ball leaves the thrower's hand.

[LAWS]19.9 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINEOUT
(a) Lineout begins. The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in.[/LAWS]

As a result, we see that the basic tactic is legal, but the receiver is in a race with the ball. He must be able to run 2m, jump, be lifted and catch before the ball can travel to him. In practice, most referees on here take the view that this will not work for front ball. If you ever get to referee, play or coach in the States, that basic premise may not apply! America, like the past, is a foreign country - they do things differently there!

By the way, thrower coming round to act as receiver is perfectly legal.

[LAWS]19.11 PLAYER THROWING-IN
There are four options available to the player throwing in:
(a) The thrower may stay within 5 metres of the touchline.
(b) The thrower may retire to the offside line 10 metres behind the line of touch.
(c) The thrower may join the lineout as soon as the ball has been thrown in.
(d) The thrower may move into the receiver position if that position is empty.
If the thrower goes anywhere else, the thrower is offside.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Law 19.8.i
Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.


This covers it.

This. And the lineout commences once the ball leaves the thrower's hand.

[LAWS]19.9 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINEOUT
(a) Lineout begins. The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in.[/LAWS]


Gentlemen, please tell me that you realize that commenced and begun/begin may not be synonyms. Simple replacement of "commenced" by "begun" would clear this whole thing up, but the real question is when does a L/O commence? We know when it begins,

 

[crossref]

it commences when it begins, for they are synonyms.

any examples outside Law 19 when it's clear that commence and begin have a different meaning?

 

[Dixie]

This. And the lineout commences once the ball leaves the thrower's hand.

[LAWS]19.9 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINEOUT
(a) Lineout begins. The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in.[/LAWS]


Gentlemen, please tell me that you realize that commenced and begun/begin may not be synonyms.

Sorry - can't do that, for the reasons Crossref explains. AFAIK, they are indeed synonyms.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

it commences when it begins, for they are synonyms.

any examples outside Law 19 when it's clear that commence and begin have a different meaning?

Nope, but for ambiguity sake and clarity would you not use the word "begins" (since a L/O begins when the ball leaves..) instead of commence

Sorry - can't do that, for the reasons Crossref explains. AFAIK, they are indeed synonyms.

Yes of course in daily language, but in Law no chance for ambiguity should exist. "Begins" has been defined in reference to L/O. "Commenced" has not. Why use a different word? To impress readers of use of synonyms, perhaps.

"Commenced" in terms of L/O could mean a variety of things, when the ball is touch by a spectator, when a QT is not taken, when Option for L/O s taken, when the thrower holds ball above head, when 2 players from each arrived. It is vague term.

"begins" is specifically defined for L/O matters, and players are liable for certain L/O offenses i.e. offside. We would PK a L/O player who barged before the ball is thrown or is the ball dead w/ no breach of Law. This example would occur after the L/O had commenced, but had yet to "begin".

 

[Greig]

Thanks, I get it now. Basically if it' a front throw, its a free kick to the non-throwing team. Call is "Receiver joining before line-out begins". What would be the signal for this?

Suggest this could be managed by asking the throwing team if its a 2-man lineout with receiver, or 3-man line-out without receiver, and allow the non-throwing team time to match.

Aside: Has anyone ever seen an attempt to lift in the line-out, with only one (front) supporting player? I ask, because I think this line-out move might work for a front throw, if the jump/lift and the throw occur first, and the receiver moves into the line-out to support (behind) and help return the jumper to ground.

 

[TNT88]

1. I don't know the official signal. However, you might point at the receiver, then show a "side entry" like signal. To indicate he was not legally allowed to enter that way.

2. For me the best management is simply to penalize it. If they have 2 men and 1 receiver, then you can't ask them if the receiver is going to enter the line out before the throw, because he isn't legally allowed to enter before the throw. (if that was what you were implying).

3. Yes that is a good tactic.

 

[Ian_Cook]

1. I don't know the official signal. However, you might point at the receiver, then show a "side entry" like signal. To indicate he was not legally allowed to enter that way.

2. For me the best management is simply to penalize it. If they have 2 men and 1 receiver, then you can't ask them if the receiver is going to enter the line out before the throw, because he isn't legally allowed to enter before the throw. (if that was what you were implying).

3. Yes that is a good tactic.

Alternatively, if you see this formation being set up, have a quiet word with the player in the receiver positon

"If you are going to join the line-out, make sure you don't start moving until the ball leaves the thrower's hands."

This will put him on notice that you are watching him.

Try to manage pro-actively rather than reactively.

 

[The Fat]

Alternatively, if you see this formation being set up, have a quiet word with the player in the receiver positon

"If you are going to join the line-out, make sure you don't start moving until the ball leaves the thrower's hands or if you do join prior to the throw then one of your 2 LO players must swap places with you"

This will put him on notice that you are watching him.

Try to manage pro-actively rather than reactively.

FTFY (are we still allowed to use that acronym?:biggrin

 

[irishref]

I've seen plenty of 1-man lifts in the sevens game...

the Fat - is it not FIFY

 

[Ian_Cook]

FTFY (are we still allowed to use that acronym?:biggrin

No, its rude and I am deeply offended... bloody Ockers!!! :sarc:

 

[Greig]

1. I don't know the official signal. However, you might point at the receiver, then show a "side entry" like signal. To indicate he was not legally allowed to enter that way.

How about point at the receiver position, then the line-out, then repeat - similar to offside in general play?

I have seen senior 15-a-side players practice the 2-man line-out jumping pod, but never seen it executed in a game. I think if it can be done safely, it would be a winner. Would need one strong player supporting, and a feather-weight jumping (maybe the SH?).

 

[Phil E]

Don't forget that Red MUST have a player in the channel (opposing hooker) 2m from sideline and 2m from line of touch.

The receiver however is optional.

 

[crossref]

I have seen senior 15-a-side players practice the 2-man line-out jumping pod, but never seen it executed in a game. I think if it can be done safely, it would be a winner. Would need one strong player supporting, and a feather-weight jumping (maybe the SH?).

#2 lifts the #1 I suppose, otherwise I can't really see any advatage to it.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Thanks, I get it now. Basically if it' a front throw, its a free kick to the non-throwing team. Call is "Receiver joining before line-out begins". What would be the signal for this?

primary signal is to place is to place index fingers in corresponding listening holes, secondary signal is to present each coach with a business sized card with the law typed verbatim, tertiary signal is to turn over card with link to this blog

Suggest this could be managed by asking the throwing team if its a 2-man lineout with receiver, or 3-man line-out without receiver, and allow the non-throwing team time to match.

The law only permits non throwing team reasonable time to match fewer than usual numbers

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