U17 behaviour or is it just me?

[Rich]

Hello peeps, just wanted your thoughts. To put this into context, I coach U14 and referee from u13 all the way up to vets, but find that often the hardest matches to manages with regards to behaviour are U17 matches. Is that me or does anyone else find that this age group have the petulance of a five year old and the brawn of a grown up?

Yesterday, I had a tense match as both teams were well matched, but despite my best efforts, I had plenty of backchat from the players and nigly foul play from both sides. Two boys eventually ended up throwing their handbags at each other, so I quietly pulled them aside and YC each one, with a suggestion that in a grown up scenario they might well have been red carded (little did I know that just that would happen between France and Italy later in the day)

Has anyone found the key to managing this age group - or it just me??

 

[crossref]

I agree with you that U17 are a tricky age.
(and I believe that the LSRFUR would normally seek to assign a ref higher than L11 to an U17 game (?) so you might have been acting as a club-ref ?)

Certainly I would say - in my first season reffing adult games - that in many ways U17 is harder than the adult games I get to ref.
- U17s are fast
- the 'red mist' descends more quickly that in the average adult
- they can be reckless
- if they get emotional, then dissent and bad behaviour can escalate v quickly
- in the background the coaches and parents are MUCH more mouthy that anyhting I ever get from the sidelines in an adult game (in my adult games, let's face it, few people are watching!)

In general qith U17s the answer is for things like dissent, handbags, high tackles etc, jump on them very early at the first opportunity.

On your RC : I reckon that if was somthing that you would have RC an adult for, you should have no hesitation at all in RC an U17 for it.

 

[Toby Warren]

U17 can be tough for all the reasons listed above.

IN my PMB I remind the skipper to manage their discipline
First sign of dissent PK (and a reminder to the skipper about the PMB)
2nd time either YC or 'last warning'

Go hard and early at discipline and they self regulate

 

[Account Deleted]

Hello peeps, just wanted your thoughts. To put this into context, I coach U14 and referee from u13 all the way up to vets, but find that often the hardest matches to manages with regards to behaviour are U17 matches. Is that me or does anyone else find that this age group have the petulance of a five year old and the brawn of a grown up?

Youth is by far the toughest assignment, and YES!

Yesterday, I had a tense match as both teams were well matched, but despite my best efforts, I had plenty of backchat from the players and nigly foul play from both sides.

Stamp it out early doors!

Two boys eventually ended up throwing their handbags at each other, so I quietly pulled them aside and YC each one, with a suggestion that in a grown up scenario they might well have been red carded .

There's your big mistake! It was either a RED or not. I'm reading it as: You went "easy" because it was "only kids". (apologies if I am reading it incorrectly!)

Has anyone found the key to managing this age group - or it just me??

It's not just you. It's a tough environment.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Seventeens are the most difficult to referee in my experience, and can be among the most rewarding.

Toby hits it for me - first ten minutes hard on setting requirements, early preventative management calls and cutting out any appealing / dissent etc. Then be consistent, play advantage, keep the tackle area clear and manage offsides and you have a great match to manage.

I echo crossref's comments - we would appoint U17s at L9 or higher.

 

[TheBFG]

Like Toby says, tough early on and if they're good boys you can give um a little more slack.

I always inc in my PMB that "sledging" of the other side and players is for the cricket pitch and the Mums and the girlfriends haven't come to watch and listen to a "dick swinging comp" so let's play rugby ok?

Any goading early on is jumped on, they soon learn who is in charge :wink:

 

[Stuartg]

I love refereeing this age. I think it helps I was a teacher for 35 years. The rugby is often of a good standard, fast, open with some great skills. You do need to get over the message of who is in charge, talk to them positively, encourage good habits and clamp down on negative play without being a tyrrant or dictator.

Sledging should not be tolerated at any level. I refer you to the Core Values of the game which include Respect for your own team, the other team and the officials. Any hint of negative comments e.g. "Let's smash 'em in this scrum, they've got nothin'" prompts me to remind them that anything they say must be positive and add to the game. This reduces niggle and promotes an atmosphere in which the game is less likely to "kick off".

Most u17 rugby I've been fortunate to ref has been considerably better than the "big fat man running in straight line rugby" I've done at levels 8&9. It's also been more entertaining than a lot of games on TV.

 

[Rich]

There's your big mistake! It was either a RED or not. I'm reading it as: You went "easy" because it was "only kids". (apologies if I am reading it incorrectly!)

no, it wasn't a red card...I did say "might" in my original post...I just thought it might give them something to think about, although sometimes I feel YC and RC can be like badges of honour at this age.

I think the key here as several of you have said, it to go in hard with discipline at the beginning to set the mark and then move on from that.

Perhaps a bit more of the moving of the penalty mark 10m with accompanying "quacking duck" signal...:knuppel2:

 

[TheBFG]

no badge of honour if you get banned for a few weeks and miss a county game/cup match etc..... they're at an age where it has to be dealt with properly, no more, miss a match you naughty boy! It's up infront of the county CB panel :redface:

 

[crossref]

sometimes I feel YC and RC can be like badges of honour at this age.

I certainly don't think a RC is seen as a badge of honour at our club. They are pretty rare, thankfully, but taken pretty seriously when they happen.

 

[matty1194]

I think the key here as several of you have said, is to go hard with discipline at the beginning to set the mark and then move on from that.

Rich, I agree with most of the other comments here, you have to control it from the beginner to reign in some of their pent up enthusiasm. You need to set your standard and be consistent as this age group have the ability to remember a lot more of what went on in the game than the older vets/3's/4's who just want to get the rugby out of the way then hit the bar.

With regards your comment of, "that in a grown up scenario they might well have been red carded" I see no reason to give them an out, if its worthy of a RC then its a RC, does not matter to me if its U16/U18, senior 1st XV or lowest XV in the club. You do the crime you earn the card.

Perhaps a bit more of the moving of the penalty mark 10m with accompanying "quacking duck" signal...:knuppel2:

However the problem if you then only keep moving them 10 but take no further action means it becomes no threat to them - they can do it with impunity if all you will do is move them 10.

 

[Decorily]

As a Coach coaching U17s I am well aware of how difficult this age can be to deal with. Physically the are well capable of playing 'adult' rugby but lets face it, for any of us who can remember back to when we were 16, it is an age for serious testing of boundaries and major 'strutting of stuff'. I find that even in training you need to be very tough but fair (obviously) and they will respect you for it. No wiggle room for saying one thing and doing another. I accept that this should be the way we referee all levels but I find that this age they can smell weakness and like to be seen as cool enough to exploit it!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I find the best way of dealing with U17s Rugby is to stay in bed on Sunday and not bother.

I coached and reffed up to U17 (about six years ago) and found them generally ok. Some clubs and lots of parents are a pain in the @rse but the "kids are alright" as Roger Daltry would say.

Ref them as you would an older age group and stop the sledging as it rapidly moves from sledging to comments about their respective mothers to handbags before you can say testosterone.

I once did an U17 game as a Society appointment (last junior game I did) we went to reduced/balanced scrums and #8 got the tit on with me because they had to play 7 v 7 and he couldn't do his Parisse-esque pick up and run bit. I soon solved it by carding him so it was 8 v 8 by the time he got back!

 

[Stuartg]

What I think helps a great deal at U17 is if you have refereed at least one of the teams when they were younger and they learned to respect your decisions. This seems to rub off on the other side. Comments?

 

[FightOrFlight]

I find this sort of thing a little quirk here in Leinster. A ref does the introductory course and becomes a trial member. He then referees from U13s up to U17s and awaits his big chance after 6-10 games to do his trial and become a full level 1 branch ref. He can then referee what is termed J5 up to J3 adult(Junior rugby). He then becomes a level 2 and can do U20/21, J3 and maybe J2. Level 3 is J2/J1(lower J1) and Level 4 is All Ireland League(Senior). System may have a few exceptions due to staffing issues but that's the general structure.
The above makes no sense however due to the fact an u17 and even u15 game is far quicker and higher standard than a J5/J4 game which may be the club's 4th,5th, or even 6th XV!! However new refs are dropped in to U15/U17 and told they must do that until they have the experience to ref J5/J4.....granted they are adults at Junior level but I have seen many lads badly caught out as trial members in an U17 game.

In Leinster U17s is a serious business. Many of these lads may be attending the big rugby schools and will play club 17s in 4th year when they are in between Junior and Senior Cup schools teams. These lads will play what is almost as good as pro rugby in school in a pro environment and they know their stuff. I did a game between 2 well knows Dublin clubs and was told by the coaches beforehand that 20 of the 30 starters started the Leinster schools Junior Cup final the Spring before. It was a very high class game and the boys knew their rugby!

At 17 all over the world kids are starting to feel the pressure to get "picked up" by their provincial structure or to stay in it too. Where they may have played at 15 for fun at 16/17 they are now looking to get picked for representative honors and when the word get's round that X from the Leinster Academy is at the game the tension ratchets up a few notches!

 

[crossref]

it's the same in England. Club Refs cover games that Society doesn't appoint to. Where we are the society will reliably appoint to a U17 league game, but the friendlies will often be a club-ref.

When the club ref later joins the society he is suprised to find that U17 games are seen as being only for relativey senior graded refs.

I can confidently say that my worst ever game was an u17 about three seasons ago, that I wasn't ready for :sad:

 

[Rich]

I can confidently say that my worst ever game was an u17 about three seasons ago, that I wasn't ready for :sad:

That's a shame, I have to say that U17s despite the potential for aggro are games which I find can be the most rewarding if you get them right, as others have said. I have another U17 league match this weekend (assuming that the pitch hasn't floated away) so the Society must think I can handle it. Either that or I'm the only mug stupid enough not to realise that staying in bed on a Sunday is preferable to reffing U17s!

 

[Browner]

I love refereeing U17's, not only their counter attacking speed test me physically, but I also consider i'm 'educating' the next generation of seniors on how to respond to referees in the right way. After most matches I feel energised & knackered in equal measure. If only I could start up a good sing song of "An Engineers Daughter" my rugby hand-me-down would be complete.

 

[menace]

I too enjoy running around (read...'after') with the U17/18s. Usually great footy without the sneaky attempts to try and cheat (especially scrums). Stomp on any early niggle and sledging and they've tended to go ok for me. If there is heat, pull up 'muckles' early and ping someone rather than waiting for advantage to come (legitimately of course, more to separate them and get that space and restart).

Can only recall one situation where it got a little ugly. In a comp game involving 2 private school. Some handbags and pushing in back-play and pile of boys rushing in caught my eye. Saw lots of airswings. But a few blows of the whistle and it dispersed as quick as it started. I start looking for the 2 culprits that started it with intent to YC them. Of course they dispersed with their team mates so I cant identify anyone with certainty. I have words with captains they 2 boys got lucky to stay on..blah blah blah. As I return to mark for scrum restart, I catch the headmaster (not the coach) of the home team, point to a boy in the backline (one of their best players) and I see him leave the field to the bench with head down and tail between his legs. :clap::clap::clap:. I'm guessing the headmaster saw it all and knew his boy started it so dished out the YC for me!

 

[SimonSmith]

When I reffed them, and U19 games, I enjoyed them. I was 'lucky' enough to be able to get the M3 corridor battles- Basingstoke, Camberley, Winchester - on a frequent enough basis that there was an undercurrent of needle. Including the red card for the headbutt after the opposition hooker blew him a kiss.