UK emigration very quick to kick out a tax paying professional Rugby player.

[L'irlandais]

Hendre Fourie: Retired England flanker refused visa Source : BBC :frown:

 

[bigruss1077]

Absolutely disgusting!! I find it highly embarrassing as an England and Sale supporter that the man can represent our country, adopting it as his own, and be treated like this! Also think that Sale could have treated him better (although we do appear to have a lot on our plates at the moment!)

 

[Davet]

Very poor by immigration service.

Though I have maintained for a long time that in order to play for a country one should have an appropriate passport.

 

[SimonSmith]

The fact that he played for the country sadly doesn't mean that he is of that country.

It strikes me that someone somewhere didn't do their homework when it came to advising him about retiring.

It sucks for him and his family, but I'm not sure why you're advocating for the law to be broken for him

 

[OB..]

The obvious question is why we have sports visas.

I remember some years ago Bedford had an excellent Russian player. He played for about a year, but he could not get a sports visa because he was not of international standard.

My daughter studied in the USA on a student Visa, but when she stopped, so did the visa.

Clearly these specialist visas will have limitations. Fourie obviously expected to stay here long enough as a player to get resident status (if he wanted it), but things went wrong.

So the final question is why do we think he should be an exception to the rules - or do we? Hard cases make bad law.

 

[Jenko]

In June 2010, Tuilagi faced deportation from the United Kingdom after it emerged that he had entered the country on a holiday visa six years earlier and had stayed on illegally. After an appeal, he was later granted indefinite leave to remain.

But he was just about to play for the Saxons at that time.

Double standard? Or in replay to OB has the precedent been set. Difference is every thing Fourie has done was legal. Tuilagi was an illegl immigrant!

 

[didds]

bloody illegal immigrants. coming over here, taking our jobs as international centres...


didds

 

[crossref]

.

Though I have maintained for a long time that in order to play for a country one should have an appropriate passport.

Bit tough for Wales, Scotland, Ireland and England then, where no such passports exist!
Or would you reorganise to form Republic of Ireland, and UK teams.

 

[OB..]

Though I have maintained for a long time that in order to play for a country one should have an appropriate passport.

Bit tough for Wales, Scotland, Ireland and England then, where no such passports exist!
Or would you reorganise to form Republic of Ireland, and UK teams.

It would also mean a player could represent more than one nation. However I suspect it was merely a very abbreviated precis of his view.

 

[Camquin]

From the quotes in MEN it does not sound like he is wedded to this country.

I could try and get a teaching visa over here but it would mean another six-year wait before I got British citizenship. The thing is we were always going to go back to South Africa eventually and two years would have been feasible but another six years is just too long.

I have to be out of the country by the end of January under my current visa and though I don’t think the authorities will be coming to knock on my door, I don’t want a red flag over my name in case I overstayed my welcome.

 

[L'irlandais]

Not entirely off-topic Rory McIlroy (Golfer) says : I may not play in Rio Olympics. It's a shame, that pressure to choose sides (Team GB of Team Ireland) means this young sports star is considering not playing at all at the next Olympics.

Thankfully in Irish Rugby the question doesn't arise. (Neither in Irish boxing nor Athletics for that matter.)
I'm for players playing only for the country where they were born, even if that means losing the likes of Ronan O' Gara to USA Rugby. I suspect they'd be happy enough with that outcome in the States.

ps. While I am delighted with players like Dougie Howlett and all they bring to the Irish provinces. I personally feel that Southern Hemisphere players getting on the Irish National selection is beyond the pale.

 

[Toby Warren]

But place of birth place doesn't = nationality.

As the old somewhat odd saying goes - if two cats mate and give birth in the oven doesn't mean that a loaf will be born. (My rather odd Maiden Aunt was very fond of that saying).

I'm British, my wife is Kiwi - our son has UK and NZ citzenship.

 

[L'irlandais]

Obviously life isn't Black & White : RoG has dual nationality so perhaps a future as backs coach for him over there.
I am Irish since I was born in that fair country ; I have since refused a French passport & choose not to apply for a British one after over 10 years of residency in the Home counties.
My daughter was born in Hampshire, and has both British and French ( from her Mum) nationalities ; with an option on an Irish passport should she feel so inclined. (Handy to have several passports, as some countries like to confiscate them on entry.)
I am specifically thinking of the case of Richardt Strauss who was born in Pretoria - (R of S Africa) and now has 2 Irish caps, with more to come during the 6 Nations. Rather unfair on any aspiring young Hookers North or South of the border.

 

[crossref]

place of birth is completely different from nationality, loads of people are born in countries of which they are not entitled to be nationals.

For instance if a British couple are working as ex-patriates in (say) Russia on a working visa, then their child born during that time would not have Russian nationality.

 

[L'irlandais]

place of birth is completely different from nationality, loads of people are born in countries of which they are not entitled to be nationals.

For instance if a British couple are working as ex-patriates in (say) Russia on a working visa, then their child born during that time would not have Russian nationality.

In the context of current Rugby Internationals, name an example. I love the way folks go right off on one here on RRF. Since your (theoretical) ex-pat's child would probaly prefer to play Rugby for one of the Home countries, then I don't suspose they will be all that bothered by not getting Russian Nationality.

I suspect that France's Gérard Depardieu may yet live to regret the day he asked for a Russian passport.

 

[OB..]

In the context of current Rugby Internationals, name an example.

Brad Barritt. David Paice. Manusamoa Tuilagi. Thomas Waldrom.

 

[L'irlandais]

Cheers OB..
It's always best to look at specific examples, rather than getting in a knot about generalities.
I feel the Pacific Island squads are the big losers here, with so many World-class players going overseas.

Here's a (2011) list of players picked for England’s training squad born outside of England.
RFU members are rightly proud of England's performances ; yet some years it looks more like a "Toulon All Stars selection", with this 3 year residency rule.

Japan is another country that appear to have no qualms about their National secection having loads of overseas players.

On-line example from Japan
Selected quotes
Former New Zealanders Ryan Nicholas and Shaun Webb, as well as former Tonga national Sione Vatuvei, obtained Japanese citizenship in July.
..
Of course, there are advantages to foreign players switching to Japanese nationality. As contract employees with the nation's top league teams hired specifically to play rugby, they can participate in more games once they are released from the restrictions placed on foreign players.
..
But there are disadvantages, too. Some players claim they have lost the right to inherit their parent's property and other assets in their native countries.
..
Of the 30 members on the Japan national team for the World Cup, 10 were originally foreign nationals. Five of those 10 have switched to Japanese citizenship.
..
"Some people say this isn't a Japanese national team because there are so many foreign players," says forward Takashi Kikutani, the team captain.

Ireland have created IRUPA (the official Players’ Union) for professional rugby players irrespective of nationality in Ireland. Proof perhaps that this issue is here to stay.

 

[OB..]

We can argue about residency rules and other ways of qualifying. What is unacceptable is using place of birth, because it can be somewhat arbitrary eg father in the forces or a diplomat

 

[crossref]

We can argue about residency rules and other ways of qualifying. What is unacceptable is using place of birth, because it can be somewhat arbitrary eg father in the forces or a diplomat

eg Simon Shaw being born in Kenya
Charlie Sharples being born in Hong Kong
Alex Corbisiero was born in New York but moved to England when he was five
Dylan Hartley (New Zealand moved at 15)
Manu Tuilagi (Samoa moved at 13).
Delon Armitage (Born Trinidad)
Joe Simpson (Born Australia)


Would anyone really, seriously, suggest that Delon Armitage should be forced to play his international rugby for Trinidad ?, Sharples for China and Shaw for Kenya ? In what possible way would that be fair, or benefit the game?

 

[Toby Warren]

Or my son being forced to play for England (shudder!)