UK emigration very quick to kick out a tax paying professional Rugby player.

[crossref]

(a) would preclude Northern Irish playing for Ireland, while (c) would prevent them playing for England, Scotland or Wales.


more seriously - if a Polish child (say) was brought by his family at age 6 to live in England, joined a club, turned out to be a world class rugby player, got picked for England... personally I think it it would be unreasonable for the IRB to force him to take up UK citizenship before he could play (if he didn't want to).

 

[Davet]

Crossref

If some one from NI wanted to play for Ireland then he can get an Irish Passport - if he choses not to then that's up to him. Ifhe has British Citizenship, or maybe just Right of Abode then all that is required is for the Unions to agree that such a player can pick which Union he wants to play for - just like a Channel Islander (and ahilst the Channel Islands are not part of the "UK of GB & NI", islanders are Bristish Citizens.

It ain't rocket science.

But it does mean that playing for a country involves a personal commitment to that country.

Same for your Polish child - either you commit, or you don't. If you don't then that's your choice, you know the rules, work out what you want most. It's called life - opening one door almost inevitablay means closing another. Tough titty, make a choice.

 

[L'irlandais]

... I am simply saying that an additional requirement should be that the player has a passport that says he is a British Citizen; or at the very least has right of abode...

Evening Davet,
Simon Thomas post #29 mentioned an article called "McIlroy must learn to keep quiet"

The article says Barry McGuigan, declined to comment about Rory McIlroy’s comment.

I'd like to recommend another couple of articles to RRF members who have the patience (they are quite long) to read : Northern Ireland’s McIlroy Transcends Boundaries

(Rory McIlroy’s agent declined to make McIlroy or his father, Gerry, available for this particular article. )

Only one hole to pick in your earlier musings, and that's that as an Irish citizen I enjoyed right of abode in the home counties for over 12 years. You will have to ask Mrs. T for the ins and outs of it, for I know not.

As Trevor Ringland insists "In fact, most of us are mongrels. You can be both Irish and British. It is not one thing or the other. ...and for many of us, it’s good enough for now."

Speaking of Mr. Ringland, brings me to that other article worth a browse : Bonds no bomb can kill or as I would say "why Ulster Rugby is one of the (few) things about my home country that I admire" ; and that is genuinely saying something coming from a die-hard Munster Rugby supporter.
:shrug:

 

[Davet]

The anachronism of Irish Citizens having a right to a British passport should be done away with.

And I'm a little hazy on right to abode in respect of EU - I would not want a French or other Passport holder to be entitled play for England, unless they had a British passport too.

Perhaps I'll withdraw "right of abode" and stick with Citizenship.

 

[Pinky]

No they are not in the UK, nor in Great Britain - they are part of the sovereign Nation called "The United Kingom of Great Britain, and Northern Ireland"

Northern Ireland is not and never has been a "Kingdom", and is certainly not in Great Britain, therefore it is not one of the United Kingdoms of Great Britain - which following the Act of Union, are England and Scotland.

Davet, there is no comma between Great Britain and "and". I have always considered this to mean that it is a United Kingdom - what is it a united kingdom of? Great Britain and Northern Ireland (ie including Wales and NI in the kingdom), it is not United Kingdoms.

 

[SimonSmith]

Actually, to be technical for a bit.

My understanding is that Wales doesn't count - it was a Principality.
Ireland, too. In days of (very) yore, Ireland was seen as a Kingdom from the English perspective but a land over which the King was Lord (dominus, not rex). See the preamble to the Magna Carta.

The United Kingdoms were the Scottish and the English.

 

[crossref]

Anyway the point is.. The four rugby countries England Ireland Scotland and Wales do not correspond to any legal states, so the question of passports isn't very helpful tool to determine eligibility. The unions have no choice but to make their own rules, governed by iRB rules (and human rights and employment legislation)

 

[Davet]

so the question of passports isn't very helpful tool to determine eligibility.

Why not?

Having a passport that makes you a citizen of the Nation within which the Rugby Union exists is a simple enough concept.

If you have it then you can play, for the Union for which you qualify according the rules, and subject to overarching rules that eg if you have played senior representative rugby for one Union then you can't switch.

If a New Zealand passport holder wanted to play for England then he couldn't, unless he qualified for, and was granted, a British Passport. If he isn't prepared to take that step then that's not a problem, it's merely his decision that he wants to remain a New Zealander; odd though that idea might be - it is perfectly acceptable, and he remains qualified to become an All Black. Waht it does mean is that he can't play for England as a sop because he isn't good enough to be an AB, and yet retain NZ citizenship. Playing fdor country, representing that country, should involve a committment to that country.

 

[crossref]

Why not?

.

because passports are issued by nation states and those rugby countries don't correspond with nation states.

 

[Davet]

Everyone (except for a very few) belongs to one nation state or another.

If the Union you want to play for exists within one nation state you should have a passport for that nation in order to play for it.

If a Union transcends polities then holding a passport for any of the nations involved would be OK.

Other qualification rules kick in afterwards.

But the point remains, you should only play for the Union / country of which you are a citizen.

 

[gwgs]

Yeah, it'd mean anyone with a British passport could play for England, Wales or Scotland... maybe not a huge hurdle for anyone currently and it is essentially the individual's choice, but at least with the requirements as they are you need a definite commitment.

 

[crossref]

But the point remains, you should only play for the Union / country of which you are a citizen.

no one is is a citizen of Wales.

 

[Davet]

Now you are being silly.

The Welsh Rugby Union exists entirely within the UK, so if you have a British passport, and qualify for Wales as per the Union Rules then no problem.

If on the other hand you are a New Zealander with a Welsh grandmother you would need to get a British Passport before you could play for Wales.

 

[OB..]

What of people with dual nationality?

 

[MrQeu]

I do like the way IRB grants sports nationality as opposed to other sports (i.e. FIBA in basketball). It takes out of the equation the different legislations over the world.

Of course having a passport should help, but not everyone can or is willing to have two passports. Dual citizenship is not recognised by everybody and not every dual citizenship is even recognised by the two states.

 

[Davet]

What of people with dual nationality?

What about them?

They get to choose one or the other, why is that a problem?

but not everyone can or is willing to have two passports

.


If you have - fine ifnot, then you play within which ever jursidiction you have one for.

Dual citizenship is not recognised by everybody and not every dual citizenship is even recognised by the two states

Not a rugby problem - show me your passport - good you can play; no passport for this country, no play for this country. Go talk to immigration.

 

[Womble]

I do like this epper:

 

[Pinky]

Actually, to be technical for a bit.

My understanding is that Wales doesn't count - it was a Principality.
Ireland, too. In days of (very) yore, Ireland was seen as a Kingdom from the English perspective but a land over which the King was Lord (dominus, not rex). See the preamble to the Magna Carta.

The United Kingdoms were the Scottish and the English.

Simon, I think the original United Kingdom was Great Britain and Ireland, before the Irish war of independence and the partition or Ireland to form Eire (a separate country) and NI which is the bit that remains in the UK.

 

[Davet]

The original and only United Kingdom is the Union of the Kingom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland - created by the Act of Union in 1707.


Ireland has never been a kingom in its own right.

 

[L'irlandais]

Hullo Davet,
Technically true, however there were Kings in Ireland long before the Normans ever turned up :
Source - Nationality and Kingship in Pre-Norman Ireland

(Ireland was ever provincial and never unified under one King.)