Uncontested Scrums

[Gracie]

Lower league game and as so often one team struggling for numbers turns up without a full front row (the away team) and asks for the game to be played with uncontested scrums )which was the only option in any case). They only have 15 players so there is no need to stop them from using subs during the game as per the rules. Home team are happy to play on this basis and a good game follows.

Post game it has been suggested to me that because the away team arrived without a full front row that the game should not have started (as a league game), in essence the away team 'handed the victory' to the home team. The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!

 

[Greg Collins]

What do your local regulations say for that league? In the jurisdiction of my local CB we start league games at L12 - L10 uncontested on a regular basis.

 

[Taff]

... one team .. turns up without a full front row ... played with uncontested scrums... They only have 15 players so there is no need to stop them from using subs during the game as per the rules.

I'm thick (but keen to learn) but which "rule" do you mean?

... The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!

Sorry, but if it was uncontested can you explain this to me as well?

 

[Dickie E]

I'm thick (but keen to learn) but which "rule" do you mean?

Law 3.5(a). If a team wishes to nominate 16, 17 or 18 players they need to have 4 STE front rowers.

 

[Gracie]

Taff to clarify; in Scotland U19 scrum variations are used in non premier/national games

o All regional league 1st XV’s
o All reserve team regional leagues
o All women’s national league and national development league
o All other rugby.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Gracie, Lower leage game if both teams are happy with the result so am I.
I'd only mention it on the card if either team wanted me to.
Usually the team with no FR will lose although this would not always be the case and you should let relevant authorities know especially if they win.
Some leagues have 0-0 wins which is a bit unfair as you can have a perfectly good game with uncontested scrums.
And before anyone ask I have signed cards with the agreement of both clubs.
why complicate things, the fixture is fulfilled and everyone is reasonably happy.

 

[beckett50]

Post game it has been suggested to me that because the away team arrived without a full front row that the game should not have started (as a league game), in essence the away team 'handed the victory' to the home team. The scrum was being played on an U19 basis; all insight welcome!

Best way to deal with this is sidestep it.

Tell the interested party that you are only there to referee the game and not make the rules about conduct of League games. Besides you had at least 30 players that wanted a game of rugby and you, happily, obliged:hap:

If the League in question has a score card that you sign, then there should be a place for you to record that the match was started and played with uncontested scrums. FWIW the result is a 0-0 home win.

 

[Greg Collins]

best thing is to know the regs for the competition you are reffing before you turn up. Then if you sidestep them, which... ahem... isn't a bad approach sometimes if all agree, at least you know what you are doing.

We've had league games get replayed because of refs getting this stuff wrong.

 

[OB..]

We've had league games get replayed because of refs getting this stuff wrong.

Surely it is because the clubs get it wrong?

My view is that it is useful for referees to know any relevant regulations, but it is not their job.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Standing orders to our Society members is to be aware of the Regs of the match they are covering.

Not our duty, but part of professional preparation for the match.

We have had two REGULATION incidents in last 8 seasons brought to Committee attention :

1. a panel referee who used National Cup Regs to play extra time in a County Cup match, instead of award a drawn match to visiting team. I had CB come in line with National Cup Regs thereafter (after quite a debate I must add !)

2. an emergency re-appt quite high level referee played full scrum laws for a Ladies level 4 league match (only top 2 levels play full, the rest use U19 variants).

 

[chopper15]

Surely it is because the clubs get it wrong?

My view is that it is useful for referees to know any relevant regulations, but it is not their job.

'. . . . but it is not their job.' ?

In a recent British & Irish Cup clash, Leinster v Pirates (12-10), the Irish hooker was YC'd after about 60 mins of play. Welsh ref, David Bodilly, instructed that scrums would then continue uncontested as it was claimed by Leinster that no adequate front rower was available.

Immediately the hooker returned, the Irish side introduced a replacement prop and the scrums reverted to normal.

My query is; can a prop take over the hooker's role to avoid the US?

A replay? Or Leinster forfeit the game, perhaps?

 

[PaulDG]

Standing orders to our Society members is to be aware of the Regs of the match they are covering.

Not our duty, but part of professional preparation for the match.

All very well, but we're not professionals and the clubs have the responsibility for their conduct within the competitions they have entered.

Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

Move the monkey back where it belongs - and it belongs to them, not us.

 

[chopper15]

Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

.

So, Paul, do the LoG forbid a prop to stand in for a hooker to avoid a US?

 

[David J.]

No the LOTG does not forbid that, per se. It forbids a player who is not suitably trained for a position in the front row to play there.

 

[PaulDG]

Wot David said.

 

[chopper15]

No the LOTG does not forbid that, per se. It forbids a player who is not suitably trained for a position in the front row to play there.

Isn't the ref obliged, therefore, to ask just that . . . is a suitably experienced front row player available, rather than a prop or hooker?

In the case I referred to the ref may have screwed up by asking only if a replacement hooker was available. If UCs suited their tactics, the coach could then have honestly replied no .

 

[OB..]

In the case I referred to the ref may have screwed up by asking only if a replacement hooker was available. If UCs suited their tactics, the coach could then have honestly replied no .

A relacement hooker is a player who is STE in that position. Since it was the hooker that was carded, then an STE hooker is required. It is that simple.

 

[Simon Thomas]

All very well, but we're not professionals and the clubs have the responsibility for their conduct within the competitions they have entered.

Ours are to manage the game safely and according to the Laws.

Move the monkey back where it belongs - and it belongs to them, not us.

PaulDG - I used the word with a lower case "p". We are not paid, but we should adopt best practice professional preparation and match execution (small p used !). As a Society we expect this approach for the KML1 up in the Championship thru to a level 11 doing the County U13 Cup Final alike.

I clearly said it is not our duty, but as a Society we have discussed this issue before and agreement was that we should all know the Regs applicable to any match we referee.

Of course clubs should know the Regs, it is their responsibilty - I have never suggested it is not. But we are all part of the same game and should work together - I can't see how any referee can effectively do a match without knowing the Regs that apply (which includes # of subs, man off, extra time, etc).

 

[OB..]

Some aspects of regulations are of relevance to the referee, as ST says, but not all eg player eligibility, or scheduling. We cover 4 local cup competitions, all with slightly differing regulations, so we provide a synopsis of points for the referee to save him having to search the full works. In our local cup matches we always have a committee member present who is supposed to know the regulations - after all he argued about them in committee!

 

[chopper15]

A relacement hooker is a player who is STE in that position. Since it was the hooker that was carded, then an STE hooker is required. It is that simple.

So, my scenario being sub judice, are you suggesting that in similar circumstances the coach would be acting properly if the so-called 'front row players' on the bench had no hooking experience; as I thought a replacement hooker is required to be held in reserve for these more elite competitions?