Ungentlemanly Conduct?

[Emmet Murphy]

Can I ask what others would do in this situation: a player is running under the posts with the ball and is about to score a try. Before he grounds the ball he turns and laughs at several members of the opposition and makes a "come on" gesture with his hands.

Would I be correct to deem that ungentlemanly conduct and award a penalty to the defending side on the 5m line?

It happened yesterday and resulted in a 30 man brawl and two red cards ...

 

[Pablo]

No simple answer to this one, but it depends on two things: the temper of the match to date, and (somewhat less heavily) on your own management style as a ref. I think if it's been a bad-tempered game, just penalise him before he can score. If the game has been fairly free of any bad blood, then you can manage the situation. Management of the situation is obviously easier if you're close to the player as he runs in.

The only time this has happened to me was a fairly good-natured game in Essex in the early stages of this season. The home side fly-half had intercepted a stupid pass and had an uncontested run-in for the try, chased by the away full back. He turned and made a V sign at the full back and I was close enough to yell "Don't!" at him. He promptly ceased the gesture and as he put the ball to the ground I yelled "Don't hit him 15" at the full back. I also told off the home 10 on the way back in-field for the conversion. Situation was thereby prevented from escalating.

I doubt the same management methods would have worked in a bad-tempered game, and it may well have gone the same way as yours and ended up in a brawl.

I commiserate with you - I too am filling out a red card form today!

 

[OB..]

Wait to see if he continues the behaviour after touching down. If he does, you can then restart with a penalty.

Whether he does or not, you should then speak to him and his captain to make sure they realise that any repetition will result in a penalty etc.

Since that sort of petty childishness led to a brawl, it sounds to me as if there was something going on previously that needed dealing with.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

Since that sort of petty childishness led to a brawl, it sounds to me as if there was something going on previously that needed dealing with.

That's something of an understatement alright! I did actually disallow the 'try' and re-started with a penalty to the defending side. There had been bad feeling throughout the first half. I spoke to both teams at length at half time and the first 20-25 mins of the second half were much much better. Then this happened!

 

[jboulet4648]

That is slightly harsh not allowing the try, especially if it was deserved. What I feel it may do is lose your credibility with the team which was about to score. Behavior of that sort can be dealt with after the try with a penalty if warranted, if you do not want to manage the situation.

Many players in the US come from American football where showboating is prevalent. In the situations where this has happened to me, I manage it. I tell the players I better not see that again, or else they deserve whatever comes to them by the defending team which I may not see. Now this works for me, because my rapport with the players and their trust in me, and ability to recognize that if needed I have no qualms about using my two trusted deputies, red and yellow. Management skills develop with the more games you referee. If it was a heated contest, I still would allow the try, would talk to the player and captain of the offending side, and make sure they knew the ramifications if it occured again, and I would also talk to the non offending captain to assure him I took care of the matter and that any revenge of sorts would be dealt with harshly.

 

[beckett50]

There could be a case of allowing the try and then giving the try scorer a YC for his actions

 

[Emmet Murphy]

There could be a case of allowing the try and then giving the try scorer a YC for his actions

Yes - I think that would have been a better option. Noone complained that I had disallowed the try afterwards but they were well ahead at the time so the decision did not affect the outcome of the match ... not so sure that would have been the case if it cost them the match.

 

[Gareth-Lee Smith]

Ah, Emmet - you did disallow the try then? I was getting the impression that you hadn't actually disallowed it, not sure why.

Very interesting scenario. I think that upon experiencing the event first hand as you have (so unfortunately) done, I would have gone the same way as you as disallowed the try. Having read this thread and so having had time to plan my action, I would allow the try but Bin the offender for being a general twat. I'd have to restrain myself from telling him so, too.

 

[Deeps]

There had been bad feeling throughout the first half.

As soon as something kicks off then come down on it like a ton of bricks. Don't be nice. Squeeze them hard in the first 10 minutes and you should not have a problem with 'bad feeling'. There is no time nor energy in your game for bad feeling; sort it out early on.

 

[malt4]

There could be a case of allowing the try and then giving the try scorer a YC for his actions

If you deem it a YC offence I can't see how you can give the try as the offence happened before the try was given, or am I being thick

 

[jeff]

Yes - I think that would have been a better option. Noone complained that I had disallowed the try afterwards but they were well ahead at the time so the decision did not affect the outcome of the match ... not so sure that would have been the case if it cost them the match

I have to agree with you. on not awarding the try on two factors.
1- he was being a prat and asking for some kind of abuse from the other team by rubbing it in their faces with the extended lead they have taken.

2- his team was well in front so it was a clear case of ungentleman conduct
and i would have y/c the player. has he then by his actions tuned it into a mass brawl. so you were in my mind perfectly correct to disallow the try.

 

[Dickie E]

I expect I would allow the try then admonish the player & his captain. That way the opposition would see that I was taking it seriously.

Generally speaking I wouldn't penalise under Law 10.4.(k) "act contrary to good sportsmanship" without having first told the offender & his captain what my standard was.

As the offence occurred before the try was scored I don't believe awarding the try and restarting with a penalty is an option. ie the ball was in play when the offence occurred so law 10.4(L) doesn't apply.

The question about a YC without a penalty is interesting. I don't think that it is either defined or prohibted in Law.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

As soon as something kicks off then come down on it like a ton of bricks. Don't be nice. Squeeze them hard in the first 10 minutes and you should not have a problem with 'bad feeling'. There is no time nor energy in your game for bad feeling; sort it out early on.

Yep ... I spent most of last night thinking about what I should have done differently and that pretty much sums it up! I did talk to both captains early on but then I didn't follow it up with any specific threats or sanctions.

As for not awarding the try, my rationale (rightly or wrongly) was that he had committed the offence before he grounded the ball. Had he grounded it and then did what he did I'd have given the try but restarted with a penalty.

 

[OB..]

The question about a YC without a penalty is interesting. I don't think that it is either defined or prohibted in Law.

Of course it is OK. You have often seen a referee issue a YC to each side after a scuffle, but he can only award the penalty to one.

 

[Dickie E]

Of course it is OK. You have often seen a referee issue a YC to each side after a scuffle, but he can only award the penalty to one.

that is significantly different. The scenario here is one offender from one team.

 

[Robert Burns]

I see no problem with not awarding the try, he was a prat and so let his team down, you wouldn't accept that on another part of the pitch because it is inciting players and you would penalise it then too. with warning that you're allowing the captain to deal with it this time, if it happens again you will deal with it.

I can't see how anyone would think not allowing the try is harsh? Serves him right!

That is managament, allowing it to happen has allowed a try to stand and allowed the offence to go unpuninished, wound up the opposition and made the restart 10 times harder. By disallowing you are making an example, opposition are pleased thatplayer has been dealt with and they have not lost 7 points, captain can only put blame on his player (despite what he might try and say) and the rest of the team will understand. (we are talking about a bad tempered game like Emmet's here, good tempered game is obviously different).

This is Rugby not football, we should not put up with anything like this and allowing it allows the bad tempers to creep into the game.

 

[Dixie]

that is significantly different. The scenario here is one offender from one team.

Dickie - I don't think this is as different as it seems. The point is that a YC has been issued to a player who has not been penalised. Yes, there is an offender from each side, but at face value it proves that a player can be carded without being penalised.

 

[OB..]

Thanks Dixie - my point precisely.

 

[tim White]

If the scores are close at a similar incident I have warned the prospective try scorer to get a move on or risk being penalised for wasting time, I hope one of the red cards was for the player that set the train of events in motion.

 

[Davet]

Perfect;y possible for a YC to be issued without penalty - after advantage has been taken.

Blue slow ball repeatedly at the breakdown, warning issued - then Blue 7 has hands on at ruck, fails to release and slows ball right down. Red 9 drags it away from him anyway - and spins a pass out wide to winger who scores.

Why would the score invalidate the YC which would otherwise have followed as night does day?

But since a try was scored then no PK.