Using hands to support body weight as part of counter ruck

[JP_Rocks]

First pre-season game over the weekend, had an interesting incident. Green team was tackled, and an arriving red player entered correctly and went to contest the ball. As he reached down, a team mate bound onto him, destabilised his position and pushed him past the ball. However, rather than just flopping onto the ground and over the ball, he went onto his hands, and kept his shoulders up with a flat back. Another red team mate bound on, and they all drove over the ball winning what they thought was a legitimate counter ruck. The green team disagreed.

Case for play on- he maintained support of his own body weight and kept his shoulders up, which would have allowed a green player to bind onto him and contest the red team's counter ruck.
Case for penalty- he was in the tackle area competing for the ball and was not supporting his own body weight with his feet.

Any opinions?

 

[ddjamo]

were there any green players there in support? if so - did red take away contestability? example...when a team bridges the opposition will just give up because it's a lost cause.

bottom line - doesn't matter how it happened - the opposition doesn't care that his mate pushed him over. if they took away the contest or gained an advantage - would have to be dealt with.

 

[JP_Rocks]

were there any green players there in support? if so - did red take away contestability? example...when a team bridges the opposition will just give up because it's a lost cause.

bottom line - doesn't matter how it happened - the opposition doesn't care that his mate pushed him over. if they took away the contest or gained an advantage - would have to be dealt with.

That is the tricky thing- red gained an advantage, but did not take away the contest. The red player's shoulders were still up, his back was flat, and the green players had the option of binding onto him and defending the counter ruck.

 

[TigerCraig]

If he is off his feet/not supporting his own body weight he needs to get out of there and start again - "Reload" as we are hearing the Super Rugby refs call.

If he has done everything right but fallen forward through a push from behind or the withdrawal from the contast of the oppos I would give him some more leniency as to time to get out of there, but he still has to get out and get up.

 

[colesy]

I had an U15 player ask me about a similar situation last month. He'd been pinged the week before for going off his feet at a ruck caused by a teammate binding on to him and driving forward and he wanted to know what my view would have been. He thought it was a little harsh as he had tried to stay on his feet and it was not any action of his that had caused him to go down.

I told him that I thought it was a bit of a grey area; that some refs would ping him and others wouldn't depending on whether or not his team has gained an unfair advantage from the offence. He seemed to accept that.

Had a similar situation in a senior match on Saturday except that it was a large mass of forwards who took their own player off his feet and drove forward. I pinged that because it seemed to me inevitable that their actions would cause the first player to be taken off his feet, as in fact occurred, and it definitely closed off the ball for the opposition.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Case for play on- he maintained support of his own body weight and kept his shoulders up, which would have allowed a green player to bind onto him and contest the red team's counter ruck.
Case for penalty- he was in the tackle area competing for the ball and was not supporting his own body weight with his feet.

Any opinions?

Case for play on: irrelevant. Not supporting his bodyweight gives him an advantage/leverage over the tackled player. The whole idea of making players stay on their feet is to keep the contest a fair one.

Case for penalty: This is the more important of the two. A player is off his feet if;

1. He has hand(s), forearm(s) or elbow(s) on the ground or on a player on the ground
2. He is leaning any part of his body or his legs/knees on a player on the ground
3. He is kneeling on the ground with one or both knees.

I agree with TigerCraig's position; If you start illegal...ping!
If you start legal, then are knocked, pushed or pulled off your feet, you must reload, i.e. get out, and go around through the gate (in the unlikely event that it is still a tackle) or join behind the hindmost foot if it is a ruck.

 

[didds]

If there is a team warning in place who gets the YC?

didds

 

[JP_Rocks]

Case for play on: irrelevant. Not supporting his bodyweight gives him an advantage/leverage over the tackled player. The whole idea of making players stay on their feet is to keep the contest a fair one.

Case for penalty: This is the more important of the two. A player is off his feet if;

1. He has hand(s), forearm(s) or elbow(s) on the ground or on a player on the ground
2. He is leaning any part of his body or his legs/knees on a player on the ground
3. He is kneeling on the ground with one or both knees.

I agree with TigerCraig's position; If you start illegal...ping!
If you start legal, then are knocked, pushed or pulled off your feet, you must reload, i.e. get out, and go around through the gate (in the unlikely event that it is still a tackle) or join behind the hindmost foot if it is a ruck.

He started legally, then got into an illegal but not-negative position- the ball would still have been easily contestable had green had the player numbers at the breakdown to do it. In fact, if a green player had been there to make contact with and form a ruck, he probably wouldn't have had to support himself on his hands.

But ultimately I agree that it should have been a pk- breaking it down to bare bones, they committed an offence at a breakdown, and that offence affected their opponents ability/opportunity to play the ball.

 

[Account Deleted]

Please!!!! It's a ruck not a counter ruck!


Law 16 Ruck
DEFINITIONS
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on
their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has
ended.
Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or
keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

No mention of the dreadful term "counter ruck"

 

[The Fat]

Please!!!! It's a ruck not a counter ruck!


Law 16 Ruck
DEFINITIONS
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on
their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has
ended.
Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or
keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

No mention of the dreadful term "counter ruck"

The OP sounds like a counter ruck preceding a ruck which wasn't a ruck as no green players were in physical contact over the ball.
Question:
Instead of two more red players binding onto the fellow with the nice straight back and his shoulders up, why didn't one of the red players just attempt to pick up the ball?
By the way, nice straight back with shoulders up or not, the first red player is still off his feet.

 

[Robert Burns]

That is the tricky thing- red gained an advantage, but did not take away the contest. The red player's shoulders were still up, his back was flat, and the green players had the option of binding onto him and defending the counter ruck.

Sounds like it wasn't clear and obvious offence to you, so play on.

 

[ChrisR]

No penalty from me. Red get three players there before green engages? Sounds like green got isolated and the contest has already been won by red. If red collapse over the ball and seal it off then that's a different matter.

What was the green tacklee doing?

 

[Davet]

Getting his hands on the ground puts his body weight further forward and takes his centre of gravity lower - makes him a LOT harder to shift.

Bridging.

Ping 'em - it might not be his fault, but collectively the team have ensured a more secure position over the ball by forcing their player off his feet.

Encourage them to stay on their feet.