video declares winner after the fact....

[ddjamo]

http://www.rugbytoday.com/clubs/wisconsin-wins-wild-one-over-detroit

Wisconsin Rugby Club beat the Detroit Tradesmen in controversial fashion Saturday to advance into playoffs. After a ruling on a conversion benefitting the Tradesmen was reversed, Wisconsin won 28-27.

“There was confusion about the final score of this game,” said Jed Elley, head coach of the Tradesmen. “The ref awarded us a two-point conversion earlier in the game – touch judges’ flags were down – and had us winners 29-28.”

After a video of the kick surfaced and some lengthy discussion, the call was reversed and Wisconsin got the win. With the kick aside, the match was a hard-fought one that had the Tradesmen on the defensive for the majority. According to Elley his team was on the defense 60-to-65-percent of the time.

I know the detroit side personally and my phone was buzzing with texts for a day after this thing ended. comments from the players...

- the referee did whistle the conversion and raised an arm.
- the referee was "overridden" by the AR after full time.
- someone had video. I heard it was from a phone.

I don't know exactly when the kick took place - but the article says, "earlier."

we all know that the referee can consult with his ARs but is this part of law? is there anywhere in law, clarifications or regs about scores once awarded are _______?

some of the players have asked me to comment and I really don't have a solid answer for them.

input?

 

[Pegleg]

For me the ref called it. Thats the end of it 29-28 score should stand. All theitems below support the ref's call.


DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee
and two touch judges or assistant referees. Additional persons, as authorised
by the match organisers may include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant
referee, an official to assist the referee in making decisions by using technological
devices, the time keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing
members of the teams and the ball persons.
A touch judge may be appointed by a match organiser or a team involved in a
match and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal and the success or
otherwise of kicks at goal.
An assistant referee may be appointed by a match organiser and is responsible
for signalling, touch, touch in-goal, the success or otherwise of kicks at goal and
indicating foul play. An assistant referee will also provide assistance to the referee
in the performance of any of the referee’s duties as directed by the referee.

6.A.4 THE DUTIES OF THE REFEREE IN THE PLAYING ENCLOSURE
(a) The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The referee must apply
fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match.
(b) The referee keeps the time.
(c) The referee keeps the score.

6.A.6 REFEREE ALTERING A DECISION
The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised the flag to signal touch.
The referee may alter a decision when an assistant referee has raised the flag to signal
touch or an act of foul play.
6.A.7 REFEREE CONSULTING WITH OTHERS
(a) The referee may consult with assistant referees about matters relating to their duties, the
Law relating to foul play or timekeeping and may request assistance related to other
aspects of the referee’s duties including the adjudication of offside.

(e) The referee must not consult with any other persons.

 

[leaguerefaus]

TMO with a phone camera, what a joke. The ref cocked up, you can't go using video to make decisions. If between the 3 of them they couldn't work out if it's a goal or not, I'd suggest a trip to the optometrist is in order for the trio.

 

[SimonSmith]

Final score, including the conversion, has to stand.

FFS

 

[damo]

That's just awful. Quite apart from anything else, teams will alter their strategy and decision making depending on what the score is. I really hope the game didn't end with Detroit kicking the ball into touch on the assumption that they had won and didn't need to score any more points.

Is there a way to appeal this decision? If so, it should be struck down and costs awarded (against the person who decided to overturn the on field score!!).

 

[Rushforth]

The relevant evidence is not whether the ball was converted or not, but if the referee whistled for it, as per [LAWS]6.A.8 (c)
The referee must blow the whistle to indicate a score, or a touch down.[/LAWS]

In doing so, this gives both TJs (or ARs) as well as both sets of players and their coaches/etc a clear signal. The audible part (whistle) is most important since it can be heard by a TJ/AR. It also means that the referee has made a decisions, which is different to not writing down a score.

 

[crossref]

What's the signal for a negative decision?

 

[Rushforth]

What's the signal for a negative decision?

Obviously there isn't one, as TJ/AR I won't flap my flag around at waist level but as ref I make a point of shaking my head from side to side norc: without the red card )

 

[4eyesbetter]

Re : Re: video declares winner after the fact....

Obviously there isn't one, as TJ/AR I won't flap my flag around at waist level but as ref I make a point of shaking my head from side to side norc: without the red card )

Oooh, can we have this discussion again for five pages?

(In addition to touch judges waving kicks no good, our referees will usually give a gentle "washout" signal with both arms. Try it sometime! Possibly save it for when Simon Thomas is not assessing you, though...)

 

[Ian_Cook]

I am 100% in favour of a TJ/AR giving a signal that a kick has missed. It is a clear indication that the TJ/AR has seen that it missed. For mine, "no signal" for a miss is indistinguishable from not seeing the ball at all. Anyone who has refereed/TJ's at night under floodlights (and I have) can easily understand how this can happen.

Watch the TJ on the extreme left of screen when the conversion is taken (1:07 on the YT clock). This is how it was always done in my day as a referee/TJ, and I honestly can't understand the justification for not doing it.

 

[Crucial]

When I have run touch at schools levels I found it good to indicate a miss on close ones as it is showing that you have made a positive decision. Especially at grounds where the posts are not overly tall and the kicker kicks high. At least the ref knew why my flag was down.
I started doing this as in one game the ref overruled the 'non flag' thinking that I was unsure and he took the decision (fair enough if he thought it went through and my positioning was poor). I took the indication back to him as saying ' I saw it clearly from good position and it went outside'

 

[Pegleg]

Is not the point:

Flag raised is the Signal for a score.


Flag not raised is the Signal for a miss.


Both are signals, one albeit by omission.

 

[crossref]

in this particular incident the signal seems to be a red herring -- the OP states that

I know the detroit side personally and my phone was buzzing with texts for a day after this thing ended. comments from the players...
- the referee did whistle the conversion and raised an arm.

but

- the referee was "overridden" by the AR after full time.

So it wasn't a signal problem. The signal was clear, the referee awarded the conversion.

The question is : what happens when a referee makes a decision on a conversion and there is conclusive video evidence that he got it wrong...

Which is a very tricky question..

 

[leaguerefaus]

in this particular incident the signal seems to be a red herring -- the OP states that


but


So it wasn't a signal problem. The signal was clear, the referee awarded the conversion.

The question is : what happens when a referee makes a decision on a conversion and there is conclusive video evidence that he got it wrong...

Which is a very tricky question..

I don't think it's a very tricky question at all. Lots of clubs record games I ref, but we're not going to change results after the game because the video shows a foot on the line prior to a try, etc.

 

[Pegleg]

in this particular incident the signal seems to be a red herring -- the OP states that


but


So it wasn't a signal problem. The signal was clear, the referee awarded the conversion.

The question is : what happens when a referee makes a decision on a conversion and there is conclusive video evidence that he got it wrong...

Which is a very tricky question..

It's not "a very tricky question" at all. Unless there is a TMO appointed video "evidence" is not admissable. End of story. If we waited after every "incident" for someone with a camera 'phone to come on and correct us the game would be a joke.

 

[OB..]

Is not the point:

Flag raised is the Signal for a score.


Flag not raised is the Signal for a miss.


Both are signals, one albeit by omission.

The problem is that with unqualified TJs, no signal may simply mean "Sorry, I don't know" eg if the ball went high and may have gone over the post.

I cannot understand why there is anything wrong with a positive signal that the kick has failed. Where is the harm?

 

[ChrisR]

Is not the point:

Flag raised is the Signal for a score.


Flag not raised is the Signal for a miss.


Both are signals, one albeit by omission.

Flag not raised is also a signal that:

TJ wasn't sure
TJ was looking at girl/guy in crowd
Sun was in TJ's eyes
TJ was pulling up socks
etc, etc

 

[Pegleg]

TJs agree and put the flag up or keep them down ar required. If one is up and one is down then we have an issue for the ref to sort out. Otherwise the signal is there. as with all signals they are open to abuse.

 

[didds]

I always thought that flag up by a AR/TJ for a kick merely means "the kick is good for my post". ?

didds

 

[crossref]

I cannot understand why there is anything wrong with a positive signal that the kick has failed. Where is the harm?

agreed - of course we should have such a signal.
indeed when I am refereeing I will give one -
kick goes over = whistle and raised arm
kick misses = quick kick-missed swipe

I don't want anyone present to have any chance of confusion.

Plus if I am overruling the touch judge, I'll speak to the two captains to make double sure they know what I have given.