Wales hands in the scrum

Taffy


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Thought that Falateu reached into the scrum tonight to get the ball and wrestle it out to make the try for Webb. Have I missed something? Surely that should be penalty England?
 

timmad

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Are you definitely a Welshman? As an England fan I thought had I been reffing (it was somewhat above my paygrade) I would have awarded England a pen. They 'won' the scrum and the only way Falateu could rescue the situation was to handle in the scrum.
 

RobLev

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Thought that Falateu reached into the scrum tonight to get the ball and wrestle it out to make the try for Webb. Have I missed something? Surely that should be penalty England?

Well, he did seem to pick it up from the tunnel...

Mind you, W#9 was metres offside at the time.
 

Taff


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Thought that Falateu reached into the scrum tonight to get the ball and wrestle it out to make the try for Webb. Have I missed something? Surely that should be penalty England?
It looked wrong, and I've been thinking about what Eddie Butler mentioned - ie how far into the scrum can he go, before it's classed as "handling in the scrum"?

Personally, I reckon, the ball needs to have at least passed the 2nd Rows feet.
 

KML1


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Number 8 unbound and picked it up. Isnt that what we want?? play on!!
 

Taff


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Number 8 unbound and picked it up. Isnt that what we want?? play on!!
But he didn't half have to go "digging" for the ball first. IMO he reckoned the ball was about to be turned over (scrum gone past 90 degrees) and got desperate.
 

OB..


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Number 8 unbound and picked it up. Isnt that what we want?? play on!!
I presume that is tongue in cheek? You obviously know that the law requires the ball to be at his feet when he unbinds. (a) He unbound early; (b) he reached into the scrum to retrieve the ball.

Of course if Neil Back had done it ... :smile:
 

buff


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I've just had a chance to watch it. If that is not handling in the scrum, what is? PK to England all day long.
 

Phil E


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Welsh scrum going backwards fast and breaking up. They couldn't heel the ball to the back fast enough and we're going to lose it. The ball wasn't even in the second row.

The 8 then resorted to illegally handling the ball to save the day. It should have been a penalty to England for any number of offences.
 

Taff


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Welsh scrum going backwards fast and breaking up. They couldn't heel the ball to the back fast enough and we're going to lose it. The ball wasn't even in the second row. The 8 then resorted to illegally handling the ball to save the day. It should have been a penalty to England for any number of offences.
Exactly. I bet they'll watch the replay and think "How the hell did we get away with that?"
 

Ian_Cook


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[LAWS]20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.[/LAWS]

The only question for me is, was the ball at Falatau's feet when he unbound?

- If it wasn't, the he has infringed under 20.3 (f)

- If it was, then he has unbound legally, the scrum is over, and he can reach in as far as he likes to get the ball.
 
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Pegleg

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I don't think where the ball is was C&O for the ref so play on seems right. From the TV angle in Browner's clip, it looks barely out of the front row. That's the benefit of TV. Should he have gone "upstairs"? Not if it appeared OK from his side (unless, of course, the AR saw something).


Were we reffing it, with the ref's view, I bet most of us would not have pingged the incident. So one of those things.
 

RobLev

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I don't think where the ball is was C&O for the ref so play on seems right. From the TV angle in Browner's clip, it looks barely out of the front row. That's the benefit of TV. Should he have gone "upstairs"? Not if it appeared OK from his side (unless, of course, the AR saw something).


Were we reffing it, with the ref's view, I bet most of us would not have pingged the incident. So one of those things.

Sounds OK - but looking at the video again, Garcés's eyes were firmly fixed on the ball at all times - he wasn't watching anything else. His AR was positioned to see the infringements, but appears not to have flagged them in.
 

FlipFlop


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Hands in scrum for me - Wales #8 almost takes out his hooker when he dives in for the ball. And how it was a Welsh Scrum in the first place, I don't know. Wales knocked it on (C&O at first showing) before England did. Even the normally blind commentators saw that!
 

Phil E


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[LAWS]20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.[/LAWS]

The only question for me is, was the ball at Falatau's feet when he unbound?

- If it wasn't, the he has infringed under 20.3 (f)

- If it was, then he has unbound legally, the scrum is over, and he can reach in as far as he likes to get the ball.

That's not correct Ian.

The scrum is over, not when he unbinds, but when he unbinds and picks the ball up (see bold above). So if he fails to pick up the ball as soon as he has unbound, then he has unbound early....which is exactly what happened....PK.

PS: just watched the video again, and the 8 is still bound with his left arm when he first reaches in with his right arm! Eventually he has to release his left arm bind because the ball is so far in the scrum he can't reach otherwise!
 
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FlipFlop


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And you don't have to know where the ball is - just look at the position the #8 has to get into (off his feet even - knee on ground, sideways) - he isn't in a legal position, and he has reached so far. In the clip you can hardly see the ball, but you know he has reached in so far for it.
 

Pegleg

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So that suggests that, from his point of view it was not clear and obvious that the ball was not "playable". It also suggests the same for the AR's view point.

I'm not saying that they are correct but that I can, as Ian suggets, understand why no whistle was heard.
 

RobLev

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So that suggests that, from his point of view it was not clear and obvious that the ball was not "playable". It also suggests the same for the AR's view point.

I'm not saying that they are correct but that I can, as Ian suggets, understand why no whistle was heard.

It's surely not a question of whether it's "playable"; it's simply a question of whether the ball was at the #8's feet. Garcés could see it wasn't - he's looking at the ball (which he can clearly see - it's in the tunnel, after all) throughout - and the AR ditto. If neither of them could see the Welsh #8 crawling around in the second row, completely unbound, grabbing the ball from the tunnel, how were either of them going to be able to see any offences at that scrum?

Mind you, neither of them noticed Youngs being a good 2m offside...
 
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