Wales vs Eng - Knock on and Time back on after asking captain to speak to players

[Dickie E]

being pedantic, as you say above the ball going backwards off a player does not negate the first knock forward, so where the ball hits the ground doesn’t dictate whether it was an infringement or not.

there are too many examples of players losing the ball forward then batting it back for that to be true.

A lineout jumper who juggles the ball before knocking it back to his SH will never be called for a knock on.

 

[DocY]

there are too many examples of players losing the ball forward then batting it back for that to be true.

A lineout jumper who juggles the ball before knocking it back to his SH will never be called for a knock on.

True I’ve never seen it called in a lineout, but always enforced when a player kicks the ball forward and sometimes when a player flaps the ball back

 

[Balones]

During this game there were ‘controversial’ decisions made by the officials that went in favour of England and which eventually led to scores but these were not so obvious and immediate and therefore went under the radar.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

1st try - technically nothing incorrect. I think from a management point of view it was simply a case of the referee being caught out by Biggars decision to kick diagonally rather than indicate and take a relatively easy shot at goal for three points. It’s not the first time, and won’t be the last, that a referee (and players?) is caught out by a player not doing what they expected them to do.

Bigger only kicked across BECAUSE England were not in position.

2nd try - I don’t think there’s any argument that the ball was initially knocked forward and never brought under control (or was it?) before it went back; having been hit back by the other hand which was in front of the first one. It was an ‘attempt’ to get it under control. - Not quite the same scenario but what would you call if at a knock forward the player was able to dive forward and knock it back into the hands of a supporting player and then they went on to score? Whether or not it touched the floor first by the scoring player.
Overall I don’t think there is a ‘correct’ answer but rather a matter of mindset and interpretation and on this occasion it went in favour of the team in red. The majority opinion would seem to be that the ‘knock-on’ would have been called and if this had happened then it would have been accepted at that moment.

But he did not do that. He lost the ball forward and before he could regather it hit his leg and at no time in any of this did he have control of the ball. It's as clear a knock on as you could wish to see.

We got the breaks from two terrible calls.

 

[Balones]

MW - tend to agree with you in general but I would word it as being a case of us getting the breaks from two calls that on another day, and perhaps on most days, may have gone the other way. The first one was a management issue and there was nothing the ref could do to rectify things in terms of ‘fairness/equity’ after he had restarted the clock. The second was a matter of interpretation of the laws which judging by the responses in various forums most (vast majority it would seem) would disagree with.

 

[Ian_Cook]

The thing is with 20 to go it was 24 all, take those two tries away and it is 10-24. Totally diferent ball game. They were critical errors for me.

But yes playing what was in front of them England's discipline in the last 20 was awful.

As always with this type of argument, its flawed. The game starts in a different place depending on whether the try is awarded or not, not to mention that the mindset of the players will be different, so the game will unfold differently.

The only times this argument can be valid are

1. A score right on half-time where no side is blown immediately after the score is completed

2. Missed conversions.

In both cases, the game restarts in the same place, in the same way regardless of the awarding or not of the try, or the success of the conversion kick...


Which brings me to something interesting I saw on the sideline watching a pre-season club game yesterday for which I will make a new thread....

ETA: https://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthrea...the-try-with-a-difference&p=372863#post372863

 

[Marc Wakeham]

No oneis arguing with the rub of the green going different ways at different times. But here, surey, it should be about was the call right or wrong. Simply one was a wrong call and the other was poor mamnagement that allowed Bigger to "take everyone by surprise".

 

[Gracie]

[LAWS]Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it
[/LAWS]

1. The red player knocks the ball forward

2. The red player never catches the ball

3. The ball does go backwards off the Red player's leg, but then first touches the ground clearly in front of where the red player first knocked the ball with his hand.

There is nothing in the law that states the ball going backwards off a player negates the fact that it was previously knocked forward.... "...a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm........ and the ball touches the ground"

For mine, the key issue is, was the place it first touched the ground "forward" of the place where it was first knocked by his hand....

It very clearly was, so IMO, this is a clear knock-on.

As for the first try, I am 50/50 as to whether or not it should have been allowed.

I guess its a lesson that professional rugby players need to have learned by this stage of their careers - the game is 80 minutes long, and you can't afford to snooze for any of it, not even a second.

Be alert! Your team needs more lerts!

Nothing about the ball hitting the ground in the World Rugby law 11.2

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/11/?highlight=Knock

 

[irishref]

A knock-on only occurs when the ball hits the ground or an opponent after the player knocks it forward.

In this case neither occured and the last motion of the ball from the Welsh player's hand was clearly backwards.

Try time.

The first one reminded me of O'Gara and a match-winning score against die Bokke, so I'll shut my Irish mouth.

 

[Decorily]

A knock-on only occurs when the ball hits the ground or an opponent after the player knocks it forward.

Not necessarily true!

 

[irishref]

Not necessarily true!

Read the definition of a knock-on. It's very clear.

 

[Decorily]

If only!!!

 

[irishref]

If only!!!

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes forwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes backwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

 

[Flish]

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes forwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes backwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

Knock on
Play on

But that’s not what happened, he just knocked it forward, half a juggle at best

 

[Decorily]

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes forwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

Red player tries to catch the ball, juggles it 3 times between his hands and the final action is it goes backwards from his left hand and hits the ground. Decision?

As I said .....if only it was as straightforward as you imply.
Each scenario would have to be assessed and decision made based on the type of action being performed.

 

[Zebra1922]

Read the definition of a knock-on. It's very clear.

So what about a player that deliberately knocks a ball forward over a defenders head then regathers. Knock on?

(ball never hits the ground or an oppo)

 

[SimonSmith]

Watching it live, my immediate reaction to the first try is that England were expecting a shot at goal, which was as large a contributory factor to the score as anything.

The second one - if I were Eddie Jones, I would be annoyed. If I were Pivac I would be annoyed if it were disallowed.

I thought he was refereeing to the assessment sheet. Technically accurate, but not great management. Certainly if I had been coaching a junior referee who had that kind of a game we would be chatting about cards and preventive measures. Itoje should have gone for his personal accumulation, and possibly a second English player for team accumulation. If we are to talk about the effect of taking one or more of the scores off, we have to ask how many points England could have shipped in 20 minutes playing with 14...

 

[Ian_Cook]

Nothing about the ball hitting the ground in the World Rugby law 11.2

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/11/?highlight=Knock

Look in the definitions... I quoted that in my post.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/search/?term=Knock-on

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So what about a player that deliberately knocks a ball forward over a defenders head then regathers. Knock on?

(ball never hits the ground or an oppo)

Throw forward! Deliberate PK!

 

[Dickie E]

Unsurprisingly, Nigel has a view: