[INTERNATIONAL] Wales vs Scotland

Ronald

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Don't know if this was discussed on another thread, but I haven't seen anything about the Gareth Davies try and him being offside. Any thoughts?

Here is a link to the try for those who haven't seen it; try in question is at about 10 seconds into the clip. https://streamable.com/9kpx
 

DocY


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Don't know if this was discussed on another thread, but I haven't seen anything about the Gareth Davies try and him being offside. Any thoughts?

Here is a link to the try for those who haven't seen it; try in question is at about 10 seconds into the clip. https://streamable.com/9kpx

It's in the Six Nations talking points thread. The consensus seems to be that the TMO should have ruled offside since he moved forward after Biggar's kick before being played onside.

Personally I can see why the referee didn't give that penalty (and he should have been able to see it without the TMO). If we penalised every scrum half who started following up a kick before being put onside (assuming they have no material effect on the game) that'd be a lot of penalties!

I never thought I'd say this, but I think Clancy did quite well, apart from a bit of trouble at the scrums he couldn't fix.
 

Ronald

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Thanks DocY, will go and look there and see if I can get rid of this one!
 

didds

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Personally I can see why the referee didn't give that penalty (and he should have been able to see it without the TMO). If we penalised every scrum half who started following up a kick before being put onside (assuming they have no material effect on the game) that'd be a lot of penalties!.

except of course they would adapt their play so as not to give away the PKs presumably.

When the sinbin was very first introduced there was a lot of hand wringing and wailing about how it would mean games being played 12 v 11... of course... it didn't once the players realised the impact of their transgressions.

didds
 

davidlandy

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It's in the Six Nations talking points thread. The consensus seems to be that the TMO should have ruled offside since he moved forward after Biggar's kick before being played onside.

Personally I can see why the referee didn't give that penalty (and he should have been able to see it without the TMO). If we penalised every scrum half who started following up a kick before being put onside (assuming they have no material effect on the game) that'd be a lot of penalties!

I never thought I'd say this, but I think Clancy did quite well, apart from a bit of trouble at the scrums he couldn't fix.

I agree - and I liked his approach of NOT penalising the scrums unless he was sure of an offence, rather than just guessing - I think it made it harder for the front rows to con the ref, and kept them honest.

And he was at least consistent re the offside: later in the game there the entire Scottish team were clearly advancing ahead of the kicker, and there was no penalty for offside.

Having thought about it, and now watched it again - thanks for the link BTW - I think the 10m rule is confusing and complicated - you have to keep several different things in your head at the same time: was he ahead of the kicker, was he within 10m of the landing zone, did someone put him onside, did he retire immediately or stay still, erm erm erm... and you've got to make a split-second call. Do people find it easy to ref this in real time, or are there typically lots of mistakes and missed calls?

And in any case, what's the point of it - surely the rule preventing an offside attacker from tackling the catcher before he'd run 5m was (is?) sufficient... or am I out of date?

Help!!

On another note, is it just me or has there been less time being spent in scrums and resets over these first two weekends of the six nations - compared to say the RWC or previous six nations? It certainly does seem to be moving along quicker.
 

DocY


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except of course they would adapt their play so as not to give away the PKs presumably.

didds

You're quite right - and I wonder if this isn't going to become a 'thing to look out for'. At the moment, though, it seems a convention that we're a bit soft on this.
 

DocY


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Having thought about it, and now watched it again - thanks for the link BTW - I think the 10m rule is confusing and complicated - you have to keep several different things in your head at the same time: was he ahead of the kicker, was he within 10m of the landing zone, did someone put him onside, did he retire immediately or stay still, erm erm erm... and you've got to make a split-second call. Do people find it easy to ref this in real time, or are there typically lots of mistakes and missed calls?

And in any case, what's the point of it - surely the rule preventing an offside attacker from tackling the catcher before he'd run 5m was (is?) sufficient... or am I out of date?

Help!!

My understanding was that it was introduced to stop players being able to affect the catcher while being in an offside position - you used to end up with a kick coming down in the middle of the kicking team's forwards, standing still with their hands in the air and making the catch fare more difficult.

Possibly another reason it wasn't picked up - it didn't look like the conventional failure to retreat.
 

didds

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FWIW I thought scrums and resets were still somewhat tedious... a minute to set up, a minute to rest, do it twice per scrum... bah.

didds
 

TheBFG


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I think the 10m rule is confusing and complicated - you have to keep several different things in your head at the same time: was he ahead of the kicker, was he within 10m of the landing zone, did someone put him onside, did he retire immediately or stay still, erm erm erm... and you've got to make a split-second call. Do people find it easy to ref this in real time, or are there typically lots of mistakes and missed calls?

And in any case, what's the point of it - surely the rule preventing an offside attacker from tackling the catcher before he'd run 5m was (is?) sufficient... or am I out of date?

Help!!

It can be a bit difficult and on your own it's certainly no easier!

My checklist:

Kick goes up, pick up line of flight, then look at who is in front and what are they doing? Then look at chasers and check where they've come from, lastly check safe catch.

Red 9 was always offside and should have made an effort to retire, by being where he was when the ball came down made him very much material.

I'm still not sure how or why it wasn't called :shrug:
 

Phil E


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Remind me who the referee was again?
And then think really​ carefully about what you just wrote

While not being a fan of Clancy I thought this was one of his better games. You certainly can't blame him for the offside.
The offside player was behind him at the kick, if anyone, the AR should have alerted him.
Clancy then asks the TMO try yes or no, and the offside isn't noticed by the TMO.

Clancy let down by his team.
 

Pegleg

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Remind me who the referee was again?
And then think really​ carefully about what you just wrote

As Per Phil's reply. It's behind Clancey He's entitled to expect his team to support him. They failed to do that. It's not Clancey's fault (this time!).
 

OB..


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Jonathan Kaplan in the Times
I can totally understand Scotland’s frustration that the Gareth Davies try was awarded. Davies was offside when Dan Biggar kicked the ball and he made no attempt to retreat ten metres or get behind the kicker. He actually moves towards the ball. When Jamie Roberts competed for the ball in the air with Duncan Taylor, Davies is still in an offside decision. The fact the ball appeared to come off Taylor does not play Davies onside. I think it is quite understandable that this was missed in real time, but it was then replayed over and over again. Graham Hughes, the television match official, needs to be more influential and know what he is looking for.


1889 - stay 5 yards away from the catcher
1896 - increased to 10 yards
1992 - illegal to move forward if in front of the kicker.

When I started playing (1949) a player in front of the kicker was expected to run up to the 10 yard limit and would be put onside if the catcher ran 5 yards.

Current law aims to prevent players from benefitting from being in an offside position. I would not like to go back to the old law.
 

Dixie


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Jonathan Kaplan in the Times
I can totally understand Scotland’s frustration that the Gareth Davies try was awarded. Davies was offside when Dan Biggar kicked the ball and he made no attempt to retreat ten metres or get behind the kicker. He actually moves towards the ball. When Jamie Roberts competed for the ball in the air with Duncan Taylor, Davies is still in an offside decision. The fact the ball appeared to come off Taylor does not play Davies onside. I think it is quite understandable that this was missed in real time, but it was then replayed over and over again. Graham Hughes, the television match official, needs to be more influential and know what he is looking for.


1889 - stay 5 yards away from the catcher
1896 - increased to 10 yards
1992 - illegal to move forward if in front of the kicker.

When I started playing (1949) a player in front of the kicker was expected to run up to the 10 yard limit and would be put onside if the catcher ran 5 yards.

Current law aims to prevent players from benefitting from being in an offside position. I would not like to go back to the old law.

And in the interests of precision, those distances from the catcher were radii - which is to say that the catcher was entitled only to a circle of space aroudn him. At some time in the late 1970s or early 1980s I think, that was changed to a line across the pitch.
 

OB..


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At some time in the late 1970s or early 1980s I think, that was changed to a line across the pitch.
It wasn't until the 2000 re-write, in fact.
 

Taff


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And in the interests of precision, those distances from the catcher were radii - which is to say that the catcher was entitled only to a circle of space aroudn him. At some time in the late 1970s or early 1980s I think, that was changed to a line across the pitch.
It wasn't until the 2000 re-write, in fact.
Yet I've seen TV graphics in the last year or so still highliting a 10m circle around where the ball lands.
 

davidlandy

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And in the interests of precision, those distances from the catcher were radii - which is to say that the catcher was entitled only to a circle of space aroudn him. At some time in the late 1970s or early 1980s I think, that was changed to a line across the pitch.

It wasn't until the 2000 re-write, in fact.

Yet I've seen TV graphics in the last year or so still highliting a 10m circle around where the ball lands.

Ah... so I'm 15 years out of date then!!

No wonder the players (and commentators) get it wrong sometimes... perhaps some of them are subconsciously (or consciously?!?) still playing to the old 10m-circle rule?

I'm wondering... would Red 9 have been offside under the old 10m circle law, or would the advancing players have put him onside before he played the ball, and/or before he got within 10m?
 
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OB..


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Ah... so I'm 15 years out of date then!!

No wonder the players (and commentators) get it wrong sometimes... perhaps some of them are subconsciously (or consciously?!?) still playing to the old 10m-circle rule?

I'm wondering... would Red 9 have been offside under the old 10m circle law, or would the advancing players have put him onside before he played the ball, and/or before he got within 10m?
Before 1992 he would have had to move 10 metres away if too close; after 2000 back behind the imaginary 10m line across the pitch.

If not in the 10m area, before 1992 he would have been allowed to move forward to just outside the 10m circle round the catcher. After 1992 he would have been liable to a penalty for moving forward when in an offside position.
 

winchesterref


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As Per Phil's reply. It's behind Clancey He's entitled to expect his team to support him. They failed to do that. It's not Clancey's fault (this time!).

Isn't that a bit like CJ's substitution faux pas?
 

Pegleg

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Isn't that a bit like CJ's substitution faux pas?

Not really. He went upstairs for an answer and was not given the correct one. Very different. but I'm sure you really knew that.
 
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