Warburton Red Card - IRB Directive

[Account Deleted]

Just watch the tackle on Cooper. The direction of the tackler is downward. There is no similarity with the Warberton tackle other than they both occurred on a rugby pitch.

 

[crossref]

What happened at the Disciplinary hearings when the citings were heard?

in order to punish them the panel have to decide that the ref was wrong -- read them they are on the IRB website..

 

[Skids]

Are we being trolled?

 

[bill_d]

Just watch the tackle on Cooper. The direction of the tackler is downward. There is no similarity with the Warberton tackle other than they both occurred on a rugby pitch.

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

June 09 Memo: In 2007, the IRB Council approved a Laws Designated Members Ruling which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.

Direction of tackler not mentioned - try again.

 

[Tonyowl]

You do know he is NOT French. In fact he is a former IRISH international (3 Caps) Born in DUBLIN.

Of course I know he is Irish, by nationality, I am also highlighting the strong French connection and the ridiculous decision to allocate him to such a high level game involving the French.

If you take another look at the footage you will see the speed of his reaction to display the red card. No consideration, no consultation, no balance, no other option?

This is why I am harping on about the choice he had under the current law. He did have a choice, the laws are open to interpretation as they state should and not must. If he had consulted, if he had considered the gravity of the moment, if he had looked around and saw the illegal reaction of the french team, if he had balanced the whole incident and applied the descretion the law did allow him, he could have made a fair decision and binned Warburton for 10 minutes.
I will never know what went through his bi-lingual mind at that time, what I do know is that the IRB made an insane choice of ref (not the ref, the decision) and the law DOES leave the subject open for development.
Either way, the French have got their final against New Zealand. I hear that Nicolas Sarkozy is free next weekend, maybe he will throw his keys into the middle to officiate.

 

[didds]

You're taking the meaning of should to be the wrong way round.

In other words, i think..

"should" versus "could"

didds

 

[crossref]

Of course I know he is Irish, by nationality, I am also highlighting the strong French connection and the ridiculous decision to allocate him to such a high level game involving the French.

If you take another look at the footage you will see the speed of his reaction to display the red card. No consideration, no consultation, no balance, no other option?

This is why I am harping on about the choice he had under the current law. He did have a choice, the laws are open to interpretation as they state should and not must. If he had consulted, if he had considered the gravity of the moment, if he had looked around and saw the illegal reaction of the french team, if he had balanced the whole incident and applied the descretion the law did allow him, he could have made a fair decision and binned Warburton for 10 minutes.
I will never know what went through his bi-lingual mind at that time, what I do know is that the IRB made an insane choice of ref (not the ref, the decision) and the law DOES leave the subject open for development.
Either way, the French have got their final against New Zealand. I hear that Nicolas Sarkozy is free next weekend, maybe he will throw his keys into the middle to officiate.

you are not going to get anywhere throwing allegations of bias (which are plain ridiculous BTW)

 

[Ian_Cook]

That's not an answer - Cooper was "lifted from ground", Cooper was "tipped horizontally", Cooper was "dropped to the ground".

Perhaps a systemic inability to read memos is what has led to such inconsistent refereeing performances?

Utter rubbish. Go back to Planet rugby where you belong

 

[Ian_Cook]

Are we being trolled?

Yes, I believe so

 

[Tonyowl]

you are not going to get anywhere throwing allegations of bias (which are plain ridiculous BTW)

There is no allegation of bias just analysis of the facts.
Good luck to the man, I hope he is proud of his actions and decision making.

Ultimately the cause of this injustice is down to the arrogant out of touch with pitch level reality of the IRB.

Clear unambigous rules
Totally impartial (by nation) referee allocation
A requirement for consultation prior to a sending off

These three things alone would have negated any reasoned argument.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Sorry to clog up your site with questions which sadly do not meet with answers unless it is to wave the memo around again. Nice attitude - and you wonder why the rest of the world consider most refs to be high-handed and out of touch...

No you aren't clogging up the forum with questions, you're clogging it up with troll posts, and if you persist, I'll start deleting your posts.

You have had answers to your questions, they are the only ones you are going to get. If you don't like the answers, go ask your questions somewhere else.

 

[OB..]

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

June 09 Memo: In 2007, the IRB Council approved a Laws Designated Members Ruling which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.

Direction of tackler not mentioned - try again.

Note the words in red.

 

[Darryl Godden]

@OB..

I think that's the problem (the words in red) many players will have experienced that it is simply the case that a player is taken off the ground by the momentum of their run.

It's not intentional, it just happens.

As stated, I think the IRB are at fault, not AR.

 

[bill_d]

Note the words in red.

Thanks - makes sense now.

 

[Ian_Cook]

There is a world of difference between driving a player off their feet onto their back (Kahui's tackle) and picking up the player, turning him over and dropping him (Warburton's tackle) or driving him onto the ground

The former is a normal part of tackling a player, done with the impact of the tackle, in one continuous flow.

The latter is three separate and deliberate actions, lift up, turn over, drop/drive downwards.

It is the LATTER type of tackle that the IRB means to eliminate from the game.

 

[Adam]

@OB..

I think that's the problem (the words in red) many players will have experienced that it is simply the case that a player is taken off the ground by the momentum of their run.

It's not intentional, it just happens.

As stated, I think the IRB are at fault, not AR.

You clearly do not understand physics. Momentum works separately in the vertical and horizontal planes. If a player running forward is stopped by a tackler then the tackled player will not go up in the air. The only way the ball carrier will go upwards is if the tackler enacts some force in and upwards direction. This is what happened here. The tackler has (whether inadvertently or not) applied a force to the ball carrier such that the ball carrier is forced upwards in such a way that the tackler has lost control of the ball carrier.

Simple mechanics.

 

[Account Deleted]

in order to punish them the panel have to decide that the ref was wrong -- read them they are on the IRB website..

I know that. I was asking the troll the question in the hope that if he knows the answer it might tell him how wrong his opinion is.

 

[Account Deleted]

Law 10.4(j) reads: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

June 09 Memo: In 2007, the IRB Council approved a Laws Designated Members Ruling which essentially made it clear that tackles involving a player being lifted off the ground and tipped horizontally and were then either forced or dropped to the ground are illegal and constitute dangerous play.

Direction of tackler not mentioned - try again.

"Lifting" as opposed to "Downward"


You can't lift by applying downward pressure - "try again"!

 

[Darryl Godden]

You clearly do not understand physics. Momentum works separately in the vertical and horizontal planes. If a player running forward is stopped by a tackler then the tackled player will not go up in the air. The only way the ball carrier will go upwards is if the tackler enacts some force in and upwards direction. This is what happened here. The tackler has (whether inadvertently or not) applied a force to the ball carrier such that the ball carrier is forced upwards in such a way that the tackler has lost control of the ball carrier.

Simple mechanics.

I think you misunderstand my point, although it may have been lost in debates across several posts, as a taller player, it is inevitable that Clerc would go up.

How many smaller v larger players do we see implement a successful lift and drive?

 

[Account Deleted]

Of course I know he is Irish, by nationality, I am also highlighting the strong French connection and the ridiculous decision to allocate him to such a high level game involving the French.

If you take another look at the footage you will see the speed of his reaction to display the red card. No consideration, no consultation, no balance, no other option?

1; So less of the "Monsieur". I dislike him as an official but I object strongly to your veiled attack on his integrity!

2; We have a saying when a new ref ask how do I know whether it is red or yellow. "You'll know it's a red when you see it" is the reply. Rolland is experienced he knew it was a red instantly. no need for a drama.