Wayne Barnes - Forward Passes

the magpie


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Just something I'm throwing out there - not to disparage, but to comment.

After last night's Aus v Wales game, where the three match officials horrendously missed the forward pass to Shane Williams that led to Wales' first try, I got to thinking that maybe Wayne Barnes has a blind spot in his game regarding forward passes.

Firstly, you can look back at the 2007 quarter final - same situation as last night (the French made a break, offload that went at least 3 metres forward on the attacking left hand side of the field) for the same result (try).

I haven't had much opportunity to look into Wayne Barnes' game, except for the games at this world cup.

Not including last night, he seemed to miss at least one forward pass per game. This wasn't being from unsighted, or marginal/flat passes, there were clear forward passes that he was in good line with.

Apart from this, he is one of the top referees, he allows good advantage in pilfering/securing the ball, and tries to use his whistle as little as possible - something all fans appreciate.

So I ask the learned referees of this forum, does Wayne Barnes have a blind spot in his game in regards to forward passes?
 

damo


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So I ask the learned referees of this forum, does Wayne Barnes have a blind spot in his game in regards to forward passes?


Yes.

Next question. :hap:


Actually I can't remember any other ones he has missed, perhaps you could remind us.

My main criticism of Barnes has been that he tended to be a bit non-interventionist at times and just let players get away with murder at the breakdowns. I felt that in the second halves of close games (Wales v SA and another I forget which) he seemed to be disinclined to give penalties that might decide the game, even if they were blatant.

I fully acknowledge that my memories from 4 years ago might colour this assessment!
 

Ian_Cook


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I thought at times last night (but not all the time) he was something of a spectator. There were numerous instances of players going off their feet at TRM, offside in the midfield, offside pillars, players in the side etc, and he just ignored it.

I get the feeling he starts well, but as the game goes on, he tends to slacken off, until by the last 15 minutes or so, players infringe with impunity and no consequences.
 
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Simon Thomas


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WB has not been refffing at the top of his game all season.

I watched the highlights last night on large screen at home, after snatched laptopn views in the office.

a) definite forward pass prior to SW try
b) SW had placed and released ball before his feet went into touch prior to another try
c) pillars /guards were not managed effectively
d) some material non-compliances at TRM (but not as many as Ian suggests) - is WB taking his "only blow for impact / material outcomes" philosophy to far ?
e) both Aussie and Welsh players seemed pleased with him and he was consistent in his decisions and style of management

Terrible injury to QC and wish him a swift recovery - my wife did her ACL skiing in March and has only just got full movement back after a late June repair operation.
 

The umpire


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And why did he allow Hook a second bite at the cherry, when Oz advanced as he went to take a FK - he just ran away with the ball without kicking it? WB sent them back and let him have another go at it. In an U16 match I kight have done that, but in a WC?
 

didds

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I thought he just got confused over a FK/PK.

though Hooks actions do rather raise another question 9which you guys may know the answer to!).

Red player starts an approach to a FK, Blue players charge the kick.

red player seeing blue players coming, does as hook did, which is NOT take the FK but just start to run away. Potentially benny Hill style all over the pitch pursued by a line of opposition! But the ball is never kicked through the mark, or even touched with the foot.

So what happens then? The ball isn't in play (is it?).

Alternatively what if the red player freezes, stands still, doesn;t kick the ball etc - can blue "tackle" him... or do they just have to run up to him and get "in his face" but not actually do anything? If if so... what he then doesn;t kick it and they stand there looking at each other?

Sorry if this is all a bit Chopperesque!

didds
 

OB..


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I thought he just got confused over a FK/PK.

though Hooks actions do rather raise another question 9which you guys may know the answer to!).

Red player starts an approach to a FK, Blue players charge the kick.

red player seeing blue players coming, does as hook did, which is NOT take the FK but just start to run away. Potentially benny Hill style all over the pitch pursued by a line of opposition! But the ball is never kicked through the mark, or even touched with the foot.

So what happens then? The ball isn't in play (is it?).

Alternatively what if the red player freezes, stands still, doesn;t kick the ball etc - can blue "tackle" him... or do they just have to run up to him and get "in his face" but not actually do anything? If if so... what he then doesn;t kick it and they stand there looking at each other?

Sorry if this is all a bit Chopperesque!

didds
He has to take the kick properly, but if the opposition prevent it, they get a scrum at the mark.
Once he has run away from the mark (except backwards), he cannot take the kick properly. Award the scrum.
 

menace


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21.8 f (sorry on iPod and can't get relevant text!) indicates that
If a fk is prevented then kick disallowed and scrum over.

In this case kick wasn't actually taken and ran over mark so scrum over too.

Barnes had choice of either option and chose neither. Looks like he got confused more!
 

the magpie


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And why did he allow Hook a second bite at the cherry, when Oz advanced as he went to take a FK - he just ran away with the ball without kicking it? WB sent them back and let him have another go at it. In an U16 match I kight have done that, but in a WC?

I had frustrated words at a 4th grade referee for the same thing this year - I had got back my 10, had actually asked whether I was onside, then charged successfully - except this ref just called play on, without the opposing fullback even tapping the ball.
 

menace


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I can understand your 4th grade ref getting it wrong as he was probably newish to reffing seniors but for a RWC ref then pretty poor IMO.
 

RugbyFan

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I thought at times last night (but not all the time) he was something of a spectator.

That was exactly how I felt. There was a couple of times that I wondered why players were not penalised for errors. Yeah I understand that it slows the game down, but sometimes it is necessary.

The forward pass was huge, and looked obvious from the camera angle. I can only assume the refs position relative to it was blocked? I would have felt bad for Australia if they had lost by less than 5.

So in high profile games, should every Try be confirmed by TMO? Would doing this slow the game down too much? And then how far back do you check for an infringement?

Makes me wonder that, with technology advances, one day we could see exact ball & player tracking to calculate forward passes, etc.
 
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Simon Thomas


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Makes me wonder that, with technology advances, one day we could see exact ball tracking for forward passes, etc.

the technology can track the ball already but you still need

a) a human to make the judgement

OR

b) a computer using a series of rules to calculate the decision - those series of riules being defined by a human !
 

TigerCraig


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Makes me wonder that, with technology advances, one day we could see exact ball & player tracking to calculate forward passes, etc.

OK for offside, but won't tell you if teh pass was forard out of teh hand v drifted forward
 

RugbyFan

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b) a computer using a series of rules to calculate the decision - those series of riules being defined by a human !

Well, computer rules need to come from somewhere ;)

OK for offside, but won't tell you if teh pass was forard out of teh hand v drifted forward

Given enough inputs it is theoretically possible to calculate all aspects of the game. We are all just big computers anyway, but we have chemical breakdowns ;) The bigger problem I see is it making the game too clinical. Sometimes perfection is not the ideal solution.
 

OB..


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Given enough inputs it is theoretically possible to calculate all aspects of the game.
For forward passes you need to track the players as well as the ball, otherwise you cannot take the player's forward speed into account
 
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