[Law] Wayne Barnes Ire V Sco 2018 6 Nations

timmad

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His interpretation of the tackle law for example. IMHO he allowed the tackled player to hold onto the ball far too long. My understanding of the tackle law has the everybody's hands coming away from the ball after arrival on the floor
This occurred on more than one occasion in Dublin this afternoon

Richard, I believe your understanding of the tackle law to be correct. All hands away immediately. However, in practice, referees are inclined to give the attacking side some leeway in presenting the ball. I thought that in Paris yesterday Jaco Peyper went too far the other way, penalising England too often for holding on (I do have English Rose-coloured specs). Especially as the French defenders, while skilled at this phase of play, were rarely on their feet and genuinely supporting their own weight as they tried to turnover the ball (a pet peeve of mine).
For what it's worth I thought WB had a good game - although I agree with others about using players' Christian names.
 

timmad

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Meant to add that teams - especially at International level - need to play to the laws as interpreted by the ref on the day. Sadly, England failed to adapt.
 

DocY


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I thought he let a lot go - particularly players going in at the side, but was consistent in that regards throughout.

The only possibly contentious call was the last try. It looked sufficiently wrong that I was surprised he didn’t go to the TMO. Haven’t seen a replay, mind, and am not saying it was the wrong call. Just the only interesting decision I saw during the game.
 

crossref


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Meant to add that teams - especially at International level - need to play to the laws as interpreted by the ref on the day. Sadly, England failed to adapt.

I really think that applies at every single level of rugby, from International, through all the levels, down to Vets and age group rugby.

And at all these levels some teams - and some coaches - are much better than others at adapting to the ref, and those teams are much more successful because of it
 

Ian_Cook


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Looks OK to me, and I have no axe to grind (I don't care who wins)
 

menace


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I did.
I also have no axe to grind...AND i dont rate WB.
In real time it seemed ok...and no reason not to award the try..only when there was a slo mo does there appear to be some doubt to review it. I dont even know now if it was try or not as highlights didnt focus on it as an issue.
 

Ian_Cook


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So you found the incident to which i referred then :biggrin:


Well, you did rather signpost it.

"Please take a look at the 3rd Irish try and tell me that the ball has been lost forward in the act of grounding"

I did...
It wasn't
 

Ian_Cook


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In real time it seemed ok...and no reason not to award the try..

WB would have either

only when there was a slo mo does there appear to be some doubt to review it. I don't even know now if it was try or not as highlights didn't focus on it as an issue.

If there was an issue with the grounding, the TMO should/would have brought it up with a "check check call". He didn't, so there wasn't.
 

leaguerefaus


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To me, this forum is about discussing actual issues and disagreements in law and interpretation. It should not be for a fellow referee to grandstand when they're upset their team had a loss. This thread is the biggest whinge I've ever seen here and is based off one poster's inability to accept their team's poor performance.
 

Phil E


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ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY

By Tom Jones, IRB Regional Development Manager North America and the West Indies

One scenario: A player attempts an easy penalty kick, from in front of the posts, to secure a win on the last play of the match. The coach watches the player, with fingers crossed for a successful outcome. Emotions rise as the ball is kicked. The referee stands behind the player, knowing that the match is effectively over, and that the kick will decide the outcome.

The kick is weak and poorly directed. It is close, but sails over the left hand post. The referee judges that it has not been successful, and blows for the end of the match.

Three different outcomes: The player receives commiserations from his team mates on account of the missed kick, a pat on the back and an inspirational "Never mind Robert. No worries. It'll be OK next time." The coach is furious that the match has been lost. He chooses not to sit on his emotions for a cooling off period, or to criticise the kicker for inadequate concentration and weak technique. He also decides not to dwell on the fact that in his coaching he has not helped the kicker to prepare for this kind of pressure situation. Rather, he walks towards the referee and, as soon as he is within earshot, hurls derision and invective for what he has decided is a terrible decision that has cost him and his team a victory. The referee is sure of his decision, and comfortable that he has done his best all afternoon. He is headed for the dressing room to review his performance, and to try to prepare to be as good as he can be on his next appointment. But he is then shocked, disappointed and upset to be verbally attacked by the coach and then spectators (who follow the coach's example).

We've all seen this, or a similar scenario happen.

Why?

Why do some people not accept responsibility for their own actions?

Why do we treat referees so differently from other people, so often?

When a team plays in a match, it faces multiple challenges. If it accepts and overcomes the challenges, it will win. If it does not overcome the challenges, it will lose.

The need to play well according to a pre-determined plan The ability to react to the changing circumstances of the game The necessity of overcoming the opposition's strengths The requirement of dealing with all the distractions - the crowd, health, travel fatigue, weather, domestic difficulties, field conditions, etc, etc, etc The obligation to accept that the referee will make some decisions which will make you wonder "right or wrong", and to be able to overcome this as merely one of the challenges, notwithstanding.

The best teams accept responsibility for the challenges that the occasion presents. They overcome the weather, the crowd, the pressures, the difficult decisions that the referee will make, and the opposition. They don't complain, and then they usually win.

If they lose, they recognise that the responsibility for the loss lies within themselves. They alone have failed to overcome the challenges that the match has presented. Not someone else. Best teams and coaches do not look for a scapegoat.

The solution lies within. In good preparation, in good practice and in good performance.

The missed kick scenario took place in the eightieth minute. The kick was terrible. It should have split the uprights. It should have taken the decision right out of the referee's hands. But it did not. More significantly, it should not have come down to a final play to decide the outcome. The team - all teams - make mistakes throughout a match, because of poor decision-making, poor skill execution, or poor coaching and preparation. Remember the poor passes or the missed catch that gave away the try; or the weak scrummage that conceded a key possession; the line-out throws which were clearly not straight; or kicking away the ball, not taking advantage of the overlap; or the stupid penalties that were conceded?

In most matches, the referee is refereeing as well as the players are playing, but there have been few occasions, I suspect, when a referee has confronted a player or a coach with criticism of the quality of player performance!

And just in case some players and coaches are wondering ... referees work hard to try to achieve optimal performance, just as they do. They attend training sessions, they work hard to develop a broad understanding of the Game, and its Charter and Laws, and they are assessed and coached. Most actually work on their fitness levels! The International Board has placed equal importance on referee and coach certification and accreditation.

Referees will try to do their part to make a match a successful and a non-controversial event. But let's remember that they - like you - are human, and will - like you - make mistakes. Let's accept responsibility for our own actions, and ask ourselves "...have I overcome the challenges, or have I not".

It has been proven that abuse of referees is a key impediment to recruitment and retention. Rugby will only be as strong as it's weakest link. If we fail to positively encourage all of the Game's components to be as good as they can be, we will all suffer the consequences.
 

Rich_NL

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If in open play, Green kicked and It was unclear who / they caught it togethercaught the ball and a maul immediately formed, Blue Scrum [ Rational if with paly had caudgh it. Scenario 1 OR 2 would apply and in both cases it would be a Blue scrum so why not?]

If it's unclear, surely it's who goes forward and failing that the attacking team?
 

DocY


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Can I ask anyone finding footage of the above situation to post it up :scot::scot:

I don't mean to be provocative, but it sounds a lot like you're saying "I wasn't happy with his refereeing. Can anyone find evidence to back up my view?"
 

L'irlandais

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NO IMHO. He would allow the Irish as long as they needed to get the ball away from the tackle area and when Scotland took the same amount of time as the Irish to get the ball away from the tackle area , he would penalise. Inconsistency at the Tackle at best
Scotland have called on referee Wayne Barnes and his team of officials to police Ireland's control of the clock to allow them play a high-tempo game in Saturday's all-important clash in.
Gamesmanship during the leadup by the Scottish coach; using the media to put pressure on the match referee. Looks like it might have back fired on them.
 

Jolly Roger


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I didn’t have any particular issue with Mr Barnes’ refereeing of the game. I am continuously frustrated with watching players in the pro game go off their feet at the breakdown, roll opponents out the way instead of staying on their own feet...but that is my bugbear.

I did have an issue with timing and accuracy though.....of many of the Scottish passes in midfield.

I would have awarded the Irish 3rd try, in fact I awarded a very similar one about 2 hours earlier when attacking scrum half scurried through from 1m and ball bounced forward from his touch down. Some of the defending team claimed that he had dropped it. I am content with my call. Enjoyed a pint in the bar afterwards with both coaches.
 

L'irlandais

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On 50 minutes of play,
Scotland make a mess of yet another certain try, this time Hogg’s poor pass costs them.
The home crowd reacted to the giant screen replay of this phase of play, as though WB had missed a Scottish knock-on, then awarded the restart to Scotland; Scotland scored off the back of that scrum. Not that the home crowd are the best indicator of which infringement should be penalised.
 

Marc Wakeham


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If it's unclear, surely it's who goes forward and failing that the attacking team?

Either outcome would have lead to the the same outcome so why not go with that? The out come you describe cover where you don't know which out come is right. here it does not matter.
 
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