[Junior] Welsh Rugby Pathway under 11s.

[Blindside]

Recently reffed a game for under 11s, players at this age group are not allowed to rip or grab the ball in the tackle.

Player scores a try but in the act of going over players grab the ball and prevent the grounding. I awarded the try. Coaches of defending team extremely unhappy.

Can anyone clarify this, i realise that these laws may vary in different Unions. Obviously it would relate to the rules in Wales. For the point of clarity lets assume he was over the plane of the tryline before the ball was grabbed.

 

[Decorily]

Recently reffed a game for under 11s, players at this age group are not allowed to rip or grab the ball in the tackle.

Player scores a try but in the act of going over players grab the ball and prevent the grounding. I awarded the try. Coaches of defending team extremely unhappy.

Can anyone clarify this, i realise that these laws may vary in different Unions. Obviously it would relate to the rules in Wales. For the point of clarity lets assume he was over the plane of the tryline before the ball was grabbed.

I know absolutely nothing about U11s rugby...
However it seems to me that you may have been in penalty try territory.

EDIT May be better to ask in the Mini Rugby Forum

 

[Marc Wakeham]

This is the most recent pathway I have:

[LAWS]
U11 Pathway WRU

• Waist high tackle or lower (the waist is the line of the shorts) there can be more than one tackler
• 1st player to the breakdown can pick and go before the ruck has formed
• After the tackle one player from each team can contest for the ball, this can be any player involved in the tackle or another arriving player

[/LAWS]
The tackler Can't play the ball (tackle must be below the waist).

One player only can contest the ball (from each team). AFTER the tackle is completed.

So noting your comment "...players grab the ball..." we have more than one person grabbing the ball. = illegal.

You say "preventing the grounding" so I assume you awarded a Penalty Try - since the grounding, and therfore, the try was prevented.

All in all:

1:If the tackle was not completed when the ball was grabbed then it is a penalty.
2: If the tackle was completed but more than one defending player grabbed the ball, then it is a penalty.
Option for PT of course in both cases.

3: If the tackle was completed and only one player grabbed the ball to prevent grounding that is fine.

 

[BigSim]

Given the above it sounds like a penalty try. But why would the coaches be extremely unhappy? It's U11 rugby not the RWC. Play to the whistle, move on and try to enjoy the game. Moany coaches will only lead to moany players.

 

[Blindside]

This is the most recent pathway I have:

[LAWS]
U11 Pathway WRU

• Waist high tackle or lower (the waist is the line of the shorts) there can be more than one tackler
• 1st player to the breakdown can pick and go before the ruck has formed
• After the tackle one player from each team can contest for the ball, this can be any player involved in the tackle or another arriving player

[/LAWS]
The tackler Can't play the ball (tackle must be below the waist).

One player only can contest the ball (from each team). AFTER the tackle is completed.

So noting your comment "...players grab the ball..." we have more than one person grabbing the ball. = illegal.

You say "preventing the grounding" so I assume you awarded a Penalty Try - since the grounding, and therfore, the try was prevented.

All in all:

1:If the tackle was not completed when the ball was grabbed then it is a penalty.
2: If the tackle was completed but more than one defending player grabbed the ball, then it is a penalty.
Option for PT of course in both cases.

3: If the tackle was completed and only one player grabbed the ball to prevent grounding that is fine.

Thanks for your reply that very clear. Id have to see the reply to know if i was right, but ill know next time.

If possible i would like clarity on two other situations with the same age group.


A) Red player is tackled, a red player protects the ball in a classic pose, blue player engages and forms a ruck and drives the red player back away from the ball, they fall over away from the ball. The ruck is over. Blue player picks up ball and runs with it. I gave a penalty because there had been a ruck and you cant pick and go from a ruck, but the ruck was over????

B) Red player is tackled, Blue player jackals immediately Red support player engages in an attempt to drive off, Blue player steels and runs with the ball. IMO no ruck was ever formed so all turnovers of this nature do not require the Jackaler or scrum half to pass. Many teams seem to think that this is not the case, even when the scenario is explained??????

 

[Marc Wakeham]

For me:

(A)
[LAWS]WRU Pathway U11

After the tackle one player from each team can contest for the ball, this can be any player
involved in the tackle or another arriving player
Acting scrum half must pass the ball after a ruck has been formed[/LAWS]

Ruck had formed and the ball must be passed away from a ruck. The Ruck is over whenever the "9" has the ball. It does not matter how it became over the ball must be passed away.

(B)
[LAWS]WRU Pathway U11
1st player to the breakdown can pick and go before the ruck has formed
[/LAWS]

If you felt there had been no ruck (you saw it, I did not. So I will go with your call), the action is legal.

 

[Blindside]

For me:

(A)
[LAWS]WRU Pathway U11

After the tackle one player from each team can contest for the ball, this can be any player
involved in the tackle or another arriving player
Acting scrum half must pass the ball after a ruck has been formed[/LAWS]

Ruck had formed and the ball must be passed away from a ruck. The Ruck is over whenever the "9" has the ball. It does not matter how it became over the ball must be passed away.

(B)
[LAWS]WRU Pathway U11
1st player to the breakdown can pick and go before the ruck has formed
[/LAWS]

If you felt there had been no ruck (you saw it, I did not. So I will go with your call), the action is legal.

Yes clarity again, the first actually happened the second is a recurring debate. My way of looking at it two players competing for the ball may look like a ruck, but its not a ruck if the first players has his hands on the ball before the other engages.

Thanks

 

[chbg]

Do the Laws that a Tackle and Ruck can only take place in the Field of Play (and therefore not in In-goal) not apply?

But I bet that this was not the coach's point.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

It does not. Where a variation is not stated then LOTG apply. I am reading the OP that this is happening in the FOP and wer are in a "legal" tackle situation - In the referee's opinion.

 

[chbg]

It does not. Where a variation is not stated then LOTG apply. I am reading the OP that this is happening in the FOP and wer are in a "legal" tackle situation - In the referee's opinion.

OP: "For the point of clarity lets assume he was over the plane of the tryline before the ball was grabbed."

 

[Marc Wakeham]

"The Ball" !


Where did the tackle start? At U11 if a tackle began infield it is a bit confusing if you play with the tackle no longer happening a milisecond later. The kids need clarity.

 

[chbg]

"The Ball" !


Where did the tackle start? At U11 if a tackle began infield it is a bit confusing if you play with the tackle no longer happening a milisecond later. The kids need clarity.

"he was over the plane of the tryline"

Hey, it doesn't really matter what was ruled on the day, but it helps to know what Law applies. Manage it, hopefully in a common way.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

"he was over the plane of the tryline"

Hey, it doesn't really matter what was ruled on the day, but it helps to know what Law applies. Manage it, hopefully in a common way.

He was over when the ball was ripped. Not when the tackle was made.

So once a tackle is made the ball cannot be ripped. In or out of in-goal.

 

[Rich_NL]

So, if a player is tackled and gets his knee down just before the line, the tackle assist standing in in-goal has to release him and let him score as it's a tackle made in the FoP?

 

[Blindside]

So, if a player is tackled and gets his knee down just before the line, the tackle assist standing in in-goal has to release him and let him score as it's a tackle made in the FoP?

This was/is the impression i was under.


In reality from my experience the tackles at this level are not penalised above the waste, however, any ripping of the ball is penalised or deliberate smother the ball to prevent a offload.

So am i also correct in saying that a player could have the ball ripped or smothered if he was over the try line when tackled. However if one was applying the law, the tackle would still have to be below the waste as all tackles must. Only in the period between the actual tackle being completed and the grounding of the ball could a player hold the ball up ??

Circumstances relating to a legal "held up" would thus be very rare? But it would be wrong to say that a under 11 player could not be held up over the line.

 

[didds]

and whilst regs like this create anomalies and strange scenarios, nonetheless we should keep in mind that the game at this level is all about development not results per se ( or it bloody should be!). So if the bigger picture of this leads to a "silly score" its just a very small part holistically of a much bigger picture.

 

[crossref]

and whilst regs like this create anomalies and strange scenarios, nonetheless we should keep in mind that the game at this level is all about development not results per se ( or it bloody should be!). So if the bigger picture of this leads to a "silly score" its just a very small part holistically of a much bigger picture.

The other side of the coin is that if the laws aren't clear and therefore decision are not consistent then the kids won't enjoy themselves and will drift away.

11 year olds have a finely developed sense of fairness !

 

[didds]

I wonder how many 11 years olds actually understand the nuance that is being discussed anyway, and how many times this scenario actually occurs per game/season for them to start forming judgements on the jolly unfairness of it all and can I go and play xbox on a sunday monring instead?

Crap reffing generally and adults placing adult ethos of sport on them (eg coaches and parents, and even local CBs in competition structures etc) is likely to have a far greater influence I suspect than the dichotomy of having to allow someone to score in a rather convoluted unique set of circumstances.

Others MMV.

didds

didds

 

[crossref]

I was talking generally rather than this one specific incident. (You were also talking generally)

My experience of 11 year olds was that they were tremendously bothered and upset by inconsistencies ...( when they noticed them, yes)