[Law] What is the official role of a touch judge during a match?

Phil E


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In England.

To be appointed as an AR you have to have done both a TJ course and an AR course. The latter can only be done through a society and you have to be a member of a society, and a qualified referee.
 

OB..


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that may apply in England but is not a universal rule. If Nigel Owens was out walking his dog and offered to run touch for my game he would be an AR. Here, it is the qualification that counts, not the appointment. IMO this is a sensible arrangement.
For local cup competitions we have a hybrid system: the referees are appointed in the usual way, but are asked to find their own ARs from society refs. Effectively they are appointed ARs by proxy.

Going by qualification in England might be a problem because it may not be practicable to establish the person's qualification - we do not carry any sort of licence.

The WRU system became very strict after the Vowles case because it cost them a lot of money.
 

crossref


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For local cup competitions we have a hybrid system: the referees are appointed in the usual way, but are asked to find their own ARs from society refs. Effectively they are appointed ARs by proxy.
.

which means they are Society appointments -- the Society giving the ref the authority to appoint his/her own ARs
 

Pegleg

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Same principle. Certain people are appointed with the athority to appoint ARs / refs etc. Others are not. It all depends on what the regulations are in country A, B or C. THe original poster needs to find out what HIS/ HER union's policy is as that is the only policy that matters.

THe basic question he is asking is were the people running the line Appointed ARs or just TJs.
 

BigClothesSir

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Two U16s County Cup finals this weekend. Panel of 6 officials appointed by Society to cover 4 games in total (teams of 3, alternate games).

I notice that those of us who are not "in the middle" are listed as TJ1 and TJ2 on the Society website but in reality we will be ARs as the website lists even the high level 3/4 AR appointments as "TJs".
 

Phil E


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The RFU are heading in that direction.
Educators are already licenced.
 

colesy


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Two U16s County Cup finals this weekend. Panel of 6 officials appointed by Society to cover 4 games in total (teams of 3, alternate games).

I notice that those of us who are not "in the middle" are listed as TJ1 and TJ2 on the Society website but in reality we will be ARs as the website lists even the high level 3/4 AR appointments as "TJs".

It's a glitch in the appointments software. We use the same software in Staffs and our AR's are marked up as TJ's on the system. Oh, and as referee coordinator for this event, I can confirm that I expect to get some AR's, not TJ's!
 

Blackberry


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Taking the view that an experienced AR adds to the safety of a game (extra pair of experienced eyes), why did this English block develop where a referee cannot give another referee known to him AR status on the day?????????? What was the thinking behind it? Any ideas?
 

leaguerefaus


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Taking the view that an experienced AR adds to the safety of a game (extra pair of experienced eyes), why did this English block develop where a referee cannot give another referee known to him AR status on the day?????????? What was the thinking behind it? Any ideas?
The only sensible thing to come out of England is Australia.
 

dhammikaheenpella

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OK, tks and it's clear enough. Going back to my original question, was it AR's job to draw ref's attention to the high tackle? In this case, has he failed to perform his duty?
 

Pegleg

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If he was an AR he is allowed to bring foul play to the attention of the referee.
However; the referee tells the AR what he wants. If the ref wanted the information and the AR saw it, he should have called it in.
 

Rushforth


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OK, tks and it's clear enough. Going back to my original question, was it AR's job to draw ref's attention to the high tackle? In this case, has he failed to perform his duty?

Going back to the original question, if it was an AR, he should NOT be watching what the referee is supposed to watch at all if he is "trailing" (i.e. on the other side of the field), but in the scenario as you described it he was in fact "leading" (i.e. the action was close to his side of the field).

A leading AR should never be interested in stuff such as offside, however any kind of foul play that the referee is unsighted from falls firmly under his remit (similarly, the trailing AR covers any foul play behind the referee's back). As such, perhaps it was his "job", but if he failed to spot it - that happens.

It is hard to be a great AR, which is why at the top level there are TMOs to ensure the right decisions get made. I've refereed well over 100 matches, run touch perhaps a factor of 4 times more often (i.e. 500+), and been an official AR ... well I can count them on the fingers of both hands.

In the OP, you also mentioned a "high tackle in the maul". I've experienced players unaware (genuinely) that they were effectively choking the ball carrier in a maul. Two or three seconds of such "choking" is plenty of time to yell "NECK - release" without particularly endangering the BC. An AR can call that too, and only then put his flag out (and call name of referee/whatever signal they have).
 

crossref


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Taking the view that an experienced AR adds to the safety of a game (extra pair of experienced eyes), why did this English block develop where a referee cannot give another referee known to him AR status on the day?????????? What was the thinking behind it? Any ideas?

But I don't think that is correct.

In a typical league table or merit table game, the organiser asks the Society to appoint the ref. The Society are free to appoint anyone they like as Ref and ARs (we don't normally appoint ARs, but could do).

You are a ref,who is a member of the society, are you allowed to make Society appointments ? If you are, then you can appoint a Society AR. (you'd obviously follow Society policy about who is qualified, and whether it's OK to have just one AR). If you are not one of the Society appointment team, you could ask them to appoint ARs to your game, and even suggest one.
 
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OB..


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Maybe therein lies the solution.
Sledgehammer to crack a nut?

Some years ago I was given a piece of plastic when I passed the refereeing exam, and another to say I was a level 2 assessor. Both had expiry dates, but I am not aware that there has ever been a renewal process. I have certainly never found any need for either, and I think the current query is too minor in itself.
 

Dickie E


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Sledgehammer to crack a nut?

Some years ago I was given a piece of plastic when I passed the refereeing exam, and another to say I was a level 2 assessor. Both had expiry dates, but I am not aware that there has ever been a renewal process. I have certainly never found any need for either, and I think the current query is too minor in itself.

Interesting. We do periodic (every 2 years, I think) refresher courses that re-certifies us as refs and ARs. Sometimes on-line, sometimes face to face, covering new laws and interpretations, safety issues, etc. Includes a multiple choice exam with a pass mark.

I hear the disdain in "piece of plastic" but a formal process to ensure refs are up to date on concussion management and the like is hardly a waste of time. Possibly more effective than a society meeting where Fred runs a powerpoint on the other side of a smoky bar while I down my 3rd pint.

Depends on the commitment to making it work
 

Dickie E


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OK, tks and it's clear enough. Going back to my original question, was it AR's job to draw ref's attention to the high tackle? In this case, has he failed to perform his duty?

assuming he was an AR and assuming he saw it and assuming he agreed with you that it was foul play and assuming it was clear and obvious and assuming he hadn't called it in to the ref on comms then, yes, he should have flagged it.
 
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Pegleg

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Interesting. We do periodic (every 2 years, I think) refresher courses that re-certifies us as refs and ARs. Sometimes on-line, sometimes face to face, covering new laws and interpretations, safety issues, etc. Includes a multiple choice exam with a pass mark.

I hear the disdain in "piece of plastic" but a formal process to ensure refs are up to date on concussion management and the like is hardly a waste of time. Possibly more effective than a society meeting where Fred runs a powerpoint on the other side of a smoky bar while I down my 3rd pint.

Depends on the commitment to making it work

I agree with you Dickie.

We have the card. Not that you tend to need to show it as most of us are known in the areas we ref. We get to know our regulars. It would resolve the issude of "unapointed line runners". If I turned up in Cardiff on a "got kit will ref" basis and a ref was injured or they were looking for someone to run touch It could be agreed that if both sides agree they could retrospectively get me appointed to the game or to run touch as an AR. A simple form signed by both sides given to the me to pass on and we are all covered.

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assuming he was an AR and assuming he saw it and assuming he agreed with you that it was foul play and assuming it was clear and obvious and assuming he hadn't called it in to the ref on comms then, yes, he should have flagged it.

Spot on.
 

Dickie E


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It could be agreed that if both sides agree they could retrospectively get me appointed to the game or to run touch as an AR. A simple form signed by both sides given to the me to pass on and we are all covered.

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Agreed but not sure why the teams would need to sign off on it. If you can demonstrate to the ref that you're qualified then surely that would be enough
 
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