What would you do?

[Buzz]

U15 'friendly' game, green v black. Black take penalty kick to touch, ball doesn't appear to cross plane of touch, and is knocked infield by green defender. Flag not raised by home team TJ (green). Black retrieves loose ball, TJ now raises flag after some persuasion from home supporters. Black 9 tells ref TJ has flag up, he says 'play on you have the ball'. Black spread ball wide to winger who has unopposed run to tryline after a number of phases. All this time, TJ remains with flag in air, 'noises' from home team supporters. Ref blows whistle and comes back for black line out before black winger crosses line.

What would you have done in this situation? :chin: Play on as you said, or come back for line with winger about to score?

 

[Zulu_Bravo]

Ask him if the correct ball was used and then award a try

Being serious, the scenario described sounds quite complex - and would be very difficult to answer for anyone who wasn't there. Speaking generally, those are the sorts of scenarios where a quick firm decision is definitely better than anything delayed as that will create the appearance of doubt. Play on but be sure to tell the TJ to lower his flag as you are doing so - ie don't leave him them looking silly with his flag up; or go back for the lineout when his flag is initially raised but be seen to ask him to raise it quicker next time. Either option will be 'correct' depending on how well it is sold.

 

[Dixie]

Agree with ZB. The TJ almost certainly has no knowledge of the definition to Law 19 that states

A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline.

So the call of "play on" was the ref exercising his superior knowledge and overruling the TJ. That should have stood. At the next break, if the flag is still up, it will be necessary to go across and explain why you overruled, and to thank the TJ for his diligence notwithstanding.

 

[crossref]

if you were well positioned and could see whether or not the ball was in touch
--- then either blow, or shout loudly 'Not in touch, play on!' and make a play on signal (yes, I know there technicaly isn't one, but it seems to work)

If you were not well positioned and don't know if the ball was in touch or not
--- go with the TJ, even though he was late. ..Blow. explain, if appropriate talk cheerfully to TJ about importance of being quick and decisive.

If the TJ is aged eleven take the flag and give it right back to the person who originally agreed to TJ for you at the beginning of the game..

 

[crossref]

actually - while it's easy to overrule a TJ and say there is a touch, it can hard to overrule him the other way and say play on... because sometimes half the players have stopped when the flag went up.

yes, yes, I know, play to the whistle, but the TJ is a type of official, and the flag going up is somewhat like hearing whistle. It's hard to blame a kid , particularly, for stopping... and if everyone stops and you don't peep.. until someone 'gets it' .. it's one of those gotchas that is technically right but you can till look a prat.

 

[PaulDG]

actually - while it's easy to overrule a TJ and say there is a touch, it can hard to overrule him the other way and say play on... because sometimes half the players have stopped when the flag went up.

It's generally a Bad Idea to overrule a TJ full stop.

He's a match official; and unless you're:

1. Absolutely certain he's wrong and,
2. Happy to do the game without TJs because his next action will be to drop your flag on the kit bag.

Go with him.

Have a word with him away from the players and spectators about any point of law he may have got wrong so he gets it right next time, sure, but think twice before overruling.

(Different with ARs, we're all supposed to have been trained to have no egos about it so if the ref chooses to overrule, shrug and get to position for the next play.)

 

[SimonSmith]

That's why you call "play on, not in touch" VERY loudly.

 

[Davet]

If you have called "Play on" and then renege on that you would not get top marks.

 

[Buzz]

Luckily the decision to come back for the line didn't have any outcome on the score as black were far more dominant in all aspects of play, and as a result the whole scenario was laughed off with toungue in cheek comments from the black coaching team and supporters afterwards. (Black won 55-3 - so game had to be stoppoed under WRU directives). But, if the game had been a lot closer, the decision could have had a bearing on the result, with a probable 7 points not being awarded.

Interestingly, the 2 teams play against each other again this weekend

 

[Dickie E]

If you're going to over-rule TJs why bother having them in the first place?

There is a recurring theme here from Pommie-land about quality of TJs. I'd suggest this is an area that should be addressed.

 

[Davet]

I never found it a problem - at any game above the very poorest grassroots we always had someone who could raise a flag when the ball crossed the line, and that's all they need to do. I'll sort out the rest.

At the levels where there was no one other than 15 players a side (or often fewer) then we all went on my call and general good behaviour - and I never found anyone trying to take advantage, it always seemed that they respinded to the situation with honesty.

 

[Dixie]

If you're going to over-rule TJs why bother having them in the first place?

It's just this sort of thinking that has recently landed Mr Kaplan in hot water. They are tools, not oracles - when they are clearly wrong, they need to be overruled.

But you are right about the general standard in England. It would be great to address it - but there doesn't seem to be the will to do so.

 

[crossref]

If you're going to over-rule TJs why bother having them in the first place?

There is a recurring theme here from Pommie-land about quality of TJs. I'd suggest this is an area that should be addressed.

junior rugby - no ARs, I ask the two coaches to 'volunteer' a TJ each for me. it's usually a Dad or an asst-coach, usually they are absolutely fine, and MUCH better than no TJ at all.

but the thing is - you never know until after the game has started and occasionally you'll get one who forgets he is the TJ... and is 40m behind the play. Or a timid one that can't quite bring themselves to wave the flag.... Or one who flags but can't remember who touched it last and never knows whose throw it is.

So it's not unusual to peep when the TJ hasn't raised a flag (cos he's asleep), but I can't remember ever shouting 'play on' after a flag...

 

[Dixie]

I can't remember ever shouting 'play on' after a flag...

it's happened to me a few times - once at ST's school's Old Boys ground, where the home TJ put his flag up as the ball crossed the plane of touch, only for the oppo fullback to catch it with his feet still in the field of play.

Last time I overruled a TJ was last weekend, where I called "Taken In" [to the 22] and the TJ awarded the lineout to the kicking team well upfield after the oppo winger caught the ball with a foot in touch. I changed both the thrower and the location of the throw, and remembered to do my best to mollify the TJ.

 

[Mickman]

If you're going to over-rule TJs why bother having them in the first place?

There is a recurring theme here from Pommie-land about quality of TJs. I'd suggest this is an area that should be addressed.

Funniest inicident I witnessed (as a spectator) this year was an injured player on his week off being volunteered by his coach to TJ their L6 fixture. Background: Young tough hooker but not much idea of laws. I was assured he wasn't 'taking the p***' but the whole game to signal touch held the flag to the side and hand straight up...

To top it off, towards the end of the game, his team scores a try on his side of the park 5m to 10m from touch (he was actually up with play :wink TJ jumps and waves his hands (and flag) in the air.

Referee makes his way over and asks - Should I disallow the try and bring it back for lineout? :wink:
Player's response: No, what? (tick, tick tick, tick ) Oh, I was just celebrating...

But seriously, there have been a more than a few occasions when refereeing over here myself that I have had to settle for what I got. Young fellow using a beer bottle as a flag two weeks ago. Suggested that he needed to get rid of the beer didn't help, he downed it there and then before the lineout was formed

Best bit of advice I was given - No-one in the crowd (or on the bench) willing to TJ... OK guys we are playing 14 a side and one winger from each side is TJ. Works pretty well to get spectators pretty quick smart.

 

[OB..]

So it's not unusual to peep when the TJ hasn't raised a flag (cos he's asleep), but I can't remember ever shouting 'play on' after a flag...

I remember two incidents in opposite directions.

(1) ball kicked across touch line in windy conditions. TJ flags. I shout "Play on" and the ball dutifully curves back to land in the field of play.

(2) player jumps across the touch line from the field of play to bat the ball back into the FoP. TJ does nothing. Peep. Player was in touch. This was just two weeks after I had received formal advice on that point.

 

[SimonSmith]

If it's a marginal call and I can't be sure, then we go with the TJ call.

But if I know I'm right and positioned to overrule, we go with the right call. Don't see a problem with that approach.

 

[crossref]

I remember two incidents in opposite directions.

(1) ball kicked across touch line in windy conditions. TJ flags. I shout "Play on" and the ball dutifully curves back to land in the field of play.

.

sweet

 

[The Fat]

1st trial match of the season last week and I am running one sideline and ask away team to provide a touchie. Young bloke in his early 20s is selected and I ask him to look after the far side away from the crowd (in case he is very average as it keeps him away from the scrutiny of the crowd).
Can't help noticing that he spends most of the game with flag in one hand and mobile phone in the other constantly texting.
Good decision to place him on the far side.