Wheeled scrums.

[Ovey]

I had a situation yesterday (in a sevens tournament, however probably as applicable to 15s in theory), where red had put in at a scrum against blue. The scrum wheeled, with the ball still in the scrum so I blew, indicated it had wheeled and gave the scrum to blue (iaw Law 20.11). The blue scrum half put the ball in and the scrum wheeled again. I again blew, indicated it had wheeled and awarded the (third!) scrum to red. Fortunately on this occasion I had an early engagement by blue and pinged them for it, thus bringing an end to the wheeled scrum episode.

My question is this, iaw Law 20.11 the only sanction for a wheeled scrum is to award the put in to the side not in possession, but theoretically this could go on ad infinitum if you get wheeled scrum after wheeled scrum. Is this correct, or have I missed a trick?

Cheers guys!

 

[crossref]

this is where everyone chips in 'manage it'

which I guess means tell the front rows to quit arsing about and if it happens again PK someone for not chasing their feet.

 

[Toby Warren]

I ping the deliberate wheel as well, easy enough to spot when the entire scrum starts running sideways.

 

[Ovey]

Under which Law (and what sanction) do you ping the deliberately wheeled scrum? Not trying to be obstructive, but I can only find Law 20.11 about wheeled scrums, as above?

 

[FlipFlop]

Not driving straight.

When a wheel happens legally it is driven round (and in XVs this will be a "slow" wheel). When there is pulling (not pushing), or second rows driving at angles (not straight) or flankers pulling it round etc - then it is a deliberate illegal wheel, illegal because of how it is done.

But in VIIs - manage it. the scrum is purely a restart (with a random element) in 7s, so if the ball is out (or comes out quickly) - let them play on. Then tell them to only push straight at the next scrum, and concentrate on the ball.

 

[Simon Thomas]

In Sevens manage the engagement, keep them static & straight - ball in & out in a nano-second, and gone.

I might suspect any wheel was done pre-ball throw in and penalise accordingly.

 

[Ovey]

Ah right, yeah I see what you mean. Thanks for the posts. Hopefully I'll not have it happen too many times, but it was just the first time I'd had it so thought I'd ask advice.

 

[Taff]

Under which Law (and what sanction) do you ping the deliberately wheeled scrum? Not trying to be obstructive, but I can only find Law 20.11 about wheeled scrums, as above?

If the scrum snapped round, it tends to get penalised as dangerous play ie a PK offence. And don't forget if one prop pulls instead of pushes (but it doesn't snap round dangerously) that's a FK offence.

What age was this BTW? Only reason it's important is that there is no turnover at U19s.

 

[Ovey]

It was adult teams at a military sevens tournament. An enjoyable day, with three refs and some pretty good rugby on show.

 

[chesref]

Looking at another angle. If in XII's the ball is still in the scrum then no side would be in possesion once the SH has put the ball in, as we have a contest for the ball.
Or am I interprteting the law wrongly and it means team not in possesion before the scrum starts.

 

[OB..]

Looking at another angle. If in XII's the ball is still in the scrum then no side would be in possesion once the SH has put the ball in, as we have a contest for the ball.
Or am I interprteting the law wrongly and it means team not in possesion before the scrum starts.

Possession: [...] for example, the ball in one half of a scrum or ruck is in that team's possession.

 

[Simon Thomas]

If in XII's the ball is still in the scrum then no side would be in possesion once the SH has put the ball in, as we have a contest for the ball.

surely you mean VII's ? XII = 12 :biggrin:

 

[B52 REF]

flipflop- just to be clear there is no requirement in lotg to "drive straight".
it irks me to hear fellow refs penalising the runaround as not driving straight-they have no basis in law. If you want to pk a whipwheel and have observed no pulling on your only legal option is 20.8 g -do the fr for "anything likely to collapse the scrum". But even then a coach could make a case that his fast whipwheel was nevertheless controlled and therefore unlikey to collapse the scrum.......

 

[OB..]

flipflop- just to be clear there is no requirement in lotg to "drive straight".

Law 20.2 (a) "When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove."
That's good enough for me.

 

[Taff]

But a scrum can still be wheeled even when all FR players feet are "in a position to make a forward shove".

I accept it isn't as easy, but it is possible .... and more importantly it's a gradual wheel.

.. If you want to pk a whipwheel and have observed no pulling on your only legal option is 20.8 g -do the fr for "anything likely to collapse the scrum". But even then a coach could make a case that his fast whipwheel was nevertheless controlled and therefore unlikey to collapse the scrum.

The coach could try, but I would make a case that a "fast whipwheel" is dangerous play by definition. The front rows are expecting and braced for a push, if they suddenly find that they're pushing and there is no resistance, the chances of the scrum collapsing rocket.

Collapsed scrums are a bit of a raw subject for me as a mate of mine has been in a wheelchair for the last 22 years after a collapsed scrum. I wasn't there when it happened, but I still remember the auful feeling when we were told.

 

[B52 REF]

o.k a scrum is allowed to wheel ergo a fr may go backwards or remain stationary, his feet must be in a position to make a forward shove but that shove is not required to be straight.

 

[Taff]

o.k a scrum is allowed to wheel ergo a fr may go backwards or remain stationary, his feet must be in a position to make a forward shove but that shove is not required to be straight.

Quite. As far as I can see, the scrum only has to be "parallel" until the scrum starts.

20.1 (j) Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half’s hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.

 

[OB..]

o.k a scrum is allowed to wheel ergo a fr may go backwards or remain stationary, his feet must be in a position to make a forward shove but that shove is not required to be straight.

Here we go again! Scrying the wording of the laws because surely they must contain the answer. I fear you place too much reliance on the belief that words were chosen with precision. We know they weren't because there are too many contradictions and ambiguities.

As far as I am concerned, a forward shove from a parallel position means it has to be straight. I think that makes sense.

 

[Taff]

.... As far as I am concerned, a forward shove from a parallel position means it has to be straight. I think that makes sense.

I see your point, but the laws must allow for a safe wheel because the U19 variations prevent a deliberate wheel.

20.11 (a) No wheeling. A team must not intentionally wheel a scrum.
Sanction: Penalty kick

My point being that if wheeling was not allowed at senior level, there would be no need to have an U19 variation.

 

[OB..]

I see your point, but the laws must allow for a safe wheel because the U19 variations prevent a deliberate wheel.

My point being that if wheeling was not allowed at senior level, there would be no need to have an U19 variation.

Pushing straight means remaining square on to your opponent. That allows for a safe wheel.

A scrum has a built-in tendency to wheel. The centre is between the hookers' heads, so each side has two people pushing on one side of the centre and only one on the other. The aim of the laws and scrum management is to keep the front rows properly locked so as to minimise the likelihood of a collapse.