Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

[crossref]

Just the one addition this week - the bold text is new in the 2018 Laws..

[LAWS]19.32. When the hindmost foot of a team is in in-goal or within five metres of that team’s goal line, the offside line for that team’s non-participants is the goal line.[/LAWS]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzYvtcl03eG7xN13VCwboOyfC0yATNdxgQ7_N1slxEc/edit?usp=sharing

as always comments welcome ...

 

[menace]

Bump...

In the 2017 law book 19.8 (i) specified that the lineout receiver may only join the lineout once the lineout commences (but can swap with a lineout player before the lineout commences).

I can't find the corresponding law in 2018 version. Anyone stumble across it or know where it now sits?

 

[crossref]

Hmm isn't that the thing that USA rugby do differently from everyone else ?
Does that mean they were right and the rest of the world were wrong ?

 

[crossref]

Here we go .. it is as I recalled
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?16108-Receiver-joining-lineout-before-throw-(and-numbers!)

So the rest of the world falls in line with the US

 

[Phil E]

Bump...

In the 2017 law book 19.8 (i) specified that the lineout receiver may only join the lineout once the lineout commences (but can swap with a lineout player before the lineout commences).

I can't find the corresponding law in 2018 version. Anyone stumble across it or know where it now sits?

[LAWS]Law 18
18. Participating players may change places in the lineout before the ball is thrown.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Participating players at a lineout:
These consist of lineout players, one receiver from each
team (if present), the player who throws in and an immediate opponent.[/LAWS]

So that confirms that the receiver is a participating player, and participating player may swap places before the throw.

 

[crossref]

2017/19.8i was about something slightly different

[LAWS] Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver , then that player , must be
positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout , and between the 5m and 15m
lines , until the lineout begins.
Once the lineout has commenced , the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform
all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.
Sanction: Free kick on the 15 metre line along the line of touch[/LAWS]

The bold bit has gone. Or seems to have gone.

So does that actually mean the receiver can no longer join the lineout ?

Or does it mean he doesn't have to wait for the lineout to begin?

I think the former

 

[Phil E]

So does that actually mean the receiver can no longer join the lineout ?
Or does it mean he doesn't have to wait for the lineout to begin?

No, because as we know there are no law changes between 2017 and 2018.

 

[crossref]

Yeah, I no longer even know what you mean by that. -- is it ironic ?

 

[menace]

[LAWS]Law 18
18. Participating players may change places in the lineout before the ball is thrown.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Participating players at a lineout:
These consist of lineout players, one receiver from each
team (if present), the player who throws in and an immediate opponent.[/LAWS]

So that confirms that the receiver is a participating player, and participating player may swap places before the throw.

Thanks . Saw that but it wasn't the swap as an issue...its the non-swap when the receiver join.

2017/19.8i was about something slightly different

[LAWS] Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver , then that player , must be
positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout , and between the 5m and 15m
lines , until the lineout begins.
Once the lineout has commenced , the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform
all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.
Sanction: Free kick on the 15 metre line along the line of touch[/LAWS]

The bold bit has gone. Or seems to have gone.

So does that actually mean the receiver can no longer join the lineout ?

Or does it mean he doesn't have to wait for the lineout to begin?

I think the former

This.^^^

No, because as we know there are no law changes between 2017 and 2018.

Also agree and I dont have a problem applying the law I know.
The problem is that Im mentoring a new senior referee....he had it happen in a game and asked me what he should have done.
I told him...then I challenged him to find it in the laws (so as to teach him that you cant just trust word of mouth or an RC!).....and here we are. He couldnt find it...and now i cant prove Im right (other than showing an 'old' law reference).

*can of worms opened

 

[crossref]

*can of worms opened

Indeed , but can't be the first time you noticed ?

 

[menace]

Indeed , but can't be the first time you noticed ?

No

Correction: re-opened.

 

[crossref]

I would say that the 2018 Law Book (as in so many cases) settles an issue that has previously caused much discussion here on RR

Q : when, exactly, is the moment when the receiver can join the line (not swapping places, but just joining) ?
A: from now on .. he can't do that.

It always was an uncomfortable idea. IMO it's a very sensible change, making lineouts a bit simpler.

 

[chbg]

I would say that the 2018 Law Book (as in so many cases) settles an issue that has previously caused much discussion here on RR

Q : when, exactly, is the moment when the receiver can join the line (not swapping places, but just joining) ?
A: from now on .. he can't do that.

It always was an uncomfortable idea. IMO it's a very sensible change, making lineouts a bit simpler.

I would be interested to see if it still occurs in 7s, as that is where the tactic was used more often than not - 2x lineout players limited opposition's opportunities to lift. Throwing-in side's Receiver moved v sharpish (once ball thrown of course) and was lifted.

 

[crossref]

Or .. reflecting on it today ...did the 2018 authors consider it so blindingly obvious that the receiver can join the line that the Law allowing him to do so was unnecessary ?

After all .. we know that the Authors are not much concerned with matching numbers

 

[ChrisR]

In the 2017 19.8(i):

[LAWS]Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver , then that player , must be
positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout , and between the 5m and 15m
lines , until the lineout begins.
Once the lineout has commenced , the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform
all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.
[/LAWS]

Before 2018 this part was interpreted to mean that:

a.The receiver can't join until the ball is thrown and b. he may join after.

With this section removed in 2018 are we to assume that:

a. The receiver can join prior to the throw or b. he is not allowed to join at all?

Or: It's "blindingly obvious" that this part was redundant and to keep whistling as you did in 2017. For me the receiver exchanging places with a lineout player is a working solution for 15's and is supported in both 2017 & 2018. I am wondering if the 7s community is thinking differently.

 

[crossref]

I guess the principle is:
Where the 2018 Law Book is clear, apply it
Where the 2018 Law Book is ambiguous, choose the interpretation that aligns with 2017

 

[crossref]

I have updated the table to include 2017/19.18(i) / 2018/18.16 - can the receiver join the line

 

[OB..]

the 9 has the ball ready to tap, attacking forwards run to take the ball on the run. 9 taps the ball when forwards or close and pops the ball to a team mate.

or must the 9 tap the ball before any of his players begin moving?

help and advice appreciated

This post from the Questions thread led me to a curiosity in the 2018 law book.

2017[LAWS]21.5 (c) If the kicker indicates to the referee the intent to kick at goal, the opposing team must stand still with their hands by their sides from the time the kicker starts to approach to kick until the ball is kicked[/LAWS]There is an accompanying illustration.

That same wording is now under Scoring 8.22 whereas the picture is still under 20 Penalty and Free Kick

 

[crossref]

Table updated
- to include the question of whether a player, offside under the 10m Law, can be put onside by a team mate
- removed a lot of the discussion about the definition of a chargedown and impact on the 10m Law (on reflection - too subtle to worry much about, I think)
- inclusion of the GLTs / May 2018 changes noted
- introduction changed
- generally tidied up

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzYvtcl03eG7xN13VCwboOyfC0yATNdxgQ7_N1slxEc/edit?usp=sharing
As always : if you spot any more please let me know.


Sigh, going back through the table and re-reading I am struck by what an opportunity missed this has been for rugbyrefs.com

When, very early on, we started to spot these unexpected differences it was clear what needed to be done

- deliberate changes and settled ambiguities needed to be highlighted and communicated to the rugby community so that players, refs, societies, unions everywhere could be aware of them and put them into practice, changing previous understanding where necessary

- at the same time the accidental changes needed to be highlighted and communicated quickly to WR, so that they could be corrected as soon as possible

- and of course by solving the above, we'd be able to tell the difference


RugbyRefs.Com, with our collective vast experience, our community of law geeks used to scrutinising subtle changes, but also our wise heads to keep us grounded in reality, our global network of rugby contacts, and our freedom from rugby's political structures was ideally positioned to take on that task and do something useful. We could have achieved something that boosted the RR.COM brand.

Instead we got bogged down in the notion that even looking for differences was somehow wrong or rebellious and senior figures refused to participate or were even hostile, sitting in the corner bellowing 'there are no changes' It has not been our finest hour.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

You are missing the point completely.

What some of us are saying is this. Read the 2018 book from the stand point that its intention was to clarify and not change and you will be closer to refereeing according to World Rugby's desires / intentions than going on a crusade to prove there are wholesale "through the back door" changes on almost every page.

Where ambiguities / apparent changes appear, we do need to flag them up for WR's consideration to facilitatea further re-wording in due course. Putting people's backs up is not likely to improve your chances and getting the re-wording and clarifications we seek / need.

The "Cardiff Society of Welsh Rugby Union Referees" (CSWRUR) has a, recently reformed sub group that is charged with law issues. I am the Society's Vice hair and Sub Group's Chair and I have presented a paper to the sub group, using your document as a discussion facilitator. It is my hope that from this group we will prepare a request that will ulitmately arrive at WR's door for its consideration.