Where to start...?

[Mike Selig]

Evening all,

Maybe the best place to start is the end result. 5 YCs (4 against away side), 2 RCs (both away - both for abuse). Final score 46-7 to home.

Away side (wonder if Phil E has ever come accross them) quite simply the side with the worst rugby ethos I've ever come accross. Within the 1st 6 minutes we'd had a high tackle, a cheap shot (shoulder charge after the scrum-half had passed the ball) and then another high tackle. The latter saw the first YC.

Things just never improved. After 13 minutes the captain tried a punch and missed. I think I may have bottled the no card but I was really trying hard to get them to comply. 2nd YC was for another high tackle which only missed because the full back ducked it (cue "he ducked into it!"; to be honest my view was that if he hadn't ducked he would have lost his head).

Things settled briefly towards the end of the first half, but then 3 YCs inside 7 minutes (spear tackle with mitigation against home team; away team number 8 joining maul with his fist, then finally away team prop for persistent dissent - again having first penalised then warned captain).

From then on it basically became a moan-fest, with every decision leading to chorus of disaproval from away team. Home side pretty much good as gold. 2 RCs in last 10 minutes for severe abuse, inc captain. No apology from hooker, half-hearted one from captain and proffusive one from coach who said he was embarassed by their behaviour.

Home team and officials full of praise for the way I handled it afterwards in bar. A couple said I was the best ref they'd had all season and one said he thought I was a high level ref sent to "sort it out". Apparently away team have history.

I'm really at odds here. I have no idea what I could have done differently. Obviously I could have been more lenient, but really the YCs were all stonewall, and I genuinely think most of my decisions were correct. Home coach commented that he thought I was communicating them well, but away team simply weren't listening. Basically they were fustrated and taking it out on me.

All left a really sour taste.

Would appreciate any advice/thoughts/support.

 

[Zulu_Bravo]

Ask yourself honestly was there anything more you could have done to prevent it?

If yes, then use it as a learning opportunity and take on board the points you need to change.

If no, then write the reports and submit them. Once you have done that, forget it.

In both instances get out reffing again asap - the sooner the better. Get it out of your system.

 

[collybs]

Mike
Was it these teams - they have previous!!

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Discipli.../2009-2010/covtechcopsewoodjudgmentmar10.ashx

Peter

 

[Deeps]

These are the games where you earn your spurs; they are not nice to take part in, are very hard work and require a lot of soul searching afterwards.

Anyone languishing at Level 10 runs risk of encountering such games week in and week out so get yourself promoted as it gets easier (so I'm told).

Time and again the advice is likely to be hit hard in the first quarter, do not allow any player an inch of leeway (sailors' term Phil!) and do not shy from producing a YC early on. Keep your wits about you, don't ball watch but look at players instead, particularly after a kick or when the ball has gone dead; jog backwards when heading for a line out so that you can see what is going on. Don't be taken in by an over friendly Captain who later pulls the carpet out from underneath you, I believe many are selected for their gobby nature and ability to wear the referee down.

Brief beforehand that you do not require any help, from any quarter, and that decisions are never on the table for discussion; that you will treat comment or suggestions on decisions as dissent and will punish accordingly.

Then smile a lot, be sharp, encourage, talk players out of offences before they happen, be firm and friendly but never hesitate.

If you are lucky, you will come up smelling of roses. Personally, I am happy if just one player looks me in the eye afterwards and says 'Thank you, I enjoyed the game'.

 

[Dixie]

They do get easier - so as Deeps says, get promoted . You'll never be free of the risk of a car crash, though. This doesn't sound like a refereeing cock-up though. Have you considered that you might have handled it perfectly - in fact, as the higher level ref "sent to sort it out" might do?

 

[Mike Selig]

Peter, yes those are they. Message clearly hasn't got through...

Deeps thanks for advice. I haven't done my self-reflection yet (I often think it dangerous to do so too soon after a game) but really, honestly I think I did all that you said in your 3rd-5th paragraph. I don't think (and the home team coach agreed) I missed much foul play, and didn't tolerate dissent, just whatever methods I used (penalties, talk to captains, cards) didn't work.

Reffing again on Wednesday so no problems with that. But really came out of the game thinking "what was the point of that?"

 

[Phil E]

The away team have a reputation. The home team were also the home team at my abandoned match the other week, so they will have been keen to be on their best behaviour.

2 RCs in last 5 minutes for severe abuse, inc captain.

I have sent their captain off before, for dissent inside the last couple of minutes. He has a reputation for it, he will be no stranger to the discipline hearing.

proffusive one from coach who said he was embarassed by their behaviour.

He always apologises profusely, he has had a lot of practise.

Mike: Learn what you can from it and move on. Don't dwell on it, not your fault if they don't want to play rugby.

 

[Davet]

Sounds like you did what was required - certainly you could have been more lenient - but tghat would have done neither tghem nor any subsequent opponents or refs any favours, so I'm pleased you were prepared to enforce the reality of playing rugby on them.

There are, from time to time, teams that do get a reputation for this sort of cheap shot, thuggish and ill disciplined behaviour. Ther may be a case for such sides tio be suspended by the relevant CB if it becomes chronic and persistent.

 

[Mike Selig]

Thanks for the support Dixie and DaveT.

I've gone over the game again in my mind. Really, the only thing I'd do differently is card the skipper for the attempted punch. This may have made a difference as a different captain may just have been able to control the team a bit (their current captain is TBH a big part of the problem) but somehow I doubt it.

I think had I been more lenient the home team may have been more tempted to take the law into their hands. In fact as I said home team generally very supportive which was a great help in the immediate aftermath (when I was really down in the dumps). Unfortunately couldn't find anyone who had heard the exact wording of the abuse.

Perhaps the thing I am having the most trouble with is I don't think I had a bad game. I think the vast majority of my decisions were correct, all the YCs were correct, I was up with play, communicating and basically doing what I do week in, week out. Yet it ended up like that, and I came off feeling terrible.

 

[Zulu_Bravo]

It sounds like it was the players' problems and not yours. As I said last night Mike, the sooner you get out reffing again the better. Even if it is just a Sunday morning U.14 B team match at your local club ... it will do your confidence no end of good.

 

[ex-lucy]

i wasnt there .. you were .. so you know how malicious etc things were ..
how much background reading/ prep had you done beforehand?
were you prepared and ready for a mgt challenging game?
did you have some phrases at the ready?
had you visualised some scenarios with prepared statememts?

"Within the 1st 6 minutes we'd had a high tackle, a cheap shot (shoulder charge after the scrum-half had passed the ball) and then another high tackle. The latter saw the first YC."

at the first high tackle ... how malicious was it ? was it just caught with a sidestep or nasty? if nasty .. how was your admonishment of player? did you involve captain?
did you feel that they listened? were other players taking notice of your chat?
atp now complete !
cheap shot. same ... what action did you take? involve capt?
i think at this stage after first admonishment .. you have done the atp .. now cards ...
but yc after second high tackle .. yes
so i dont think you did much wrong.... if anything

 

[Mike Selig]

i wasnt there .. you were .. so you know how malicious etc things were ..
how much background reading/ prep had you done beforehand?
were you prepared and ready for a mgt challenging game?
did you have some phrases at the ready?
had you visualised some scenarios with prepared statememts?

Actually I wasn't aware of the reputation of away side, but not sure this is a bad thing? Went in as all my games with an open mind and will to be firm in the first 20.

at the first high tackle ... how malicious was it ? was it just caught with a sidestep or nasty? if nasty .. how was your admonishment of player? did you involve captain?
did you feel that they listened? were other players taking notice of your chat?
atp now complete !
cheap shot. same ... what action did you take? involve capt?
i think at this stage after first admonishment .. you have done the atp .. now cards ...
but yc after second high tackle .. yes
[\QUOTE]

First high tackle I thought was just mistimed. Loud whistle blow "that's high and dangerous, keep those down please". After the cheap shot I called both player and captain over, warned captain "two instances of foul play already skipper, anymore shortly and my options will be limitted understood?" Next high tackle, YC no option. Clearly they weren't listening or paying any attention whatsoever but I'm not sure what I could have done differently?

so i dont think you did much wrong.... if anything

Thanks.

 

[andyscott]

You tried to get a game of rugby which is a credit to you.

Points, (these are how I would handle it at L10)

1. Look to YC foul play early, it's sets your level. If you get a gimmie in the first minute, take it.
2. Dont think the capt can manage his players, some players dont want to be managed
3. Any form of swinging arm or swinging fist YC.
4. After 1 chat with a Capt don't have a second one, he has had his chance.

All in all it sounds like you handled it well and the team didn't know how to cope with strong refereeing

 

[Mike Selig]

Just come back from a very enjoyable women's uni game (no more than a dozen pens in total I reckon). Chatting to a ref doing another uni game + his coach/assessor in the changing room it seems away side (of the 4YC and 2RC) are well known to everyone... Am feeling a bit better as a consequence. Thanks to all for your support.

 

[ex-lucy]

i had a chat with a L12 ref last Sat ... he refereed a L13 team the other Saturday and had a car crash-ish game ...
i told him that i had refereed them the previous week .. they are reknowned to be difficult to referee.
I just said to him not to take it personally and lots of refs come unstuck with them.
We both agreed that there should be a way of warning L12/13 refs about certain teams to be armed and ready with certain phrases and tools etc
I suggested a msg forum for refs on county refs website so that we can discuss incidents to help other refs.
Mike says he doesnt like to be pre-warned about team's reputations ...I do. what say you lot?

 

[Davet]

Just because ref A had a problem - ref B may not.

A pre-warning can actually create a self-fulfilling prophesy, you expect them to be B@stds, so guess what...

 

[Dixie]

Ex-Lucy, I like to gather information such as league position, forward-oriented or back-oriented before a game, as it will help me to visualise and prepare for the sort of game I may encounter. So when a powerful set of forwrads comes up against a smaller team with with quick clever backs, I'll be watching closely for the former potentially killing quick ball and the latter cheating in the scrums and lineouts to disrupt oppo ball.

But like Davet, I do feel that tarring a side with a perpetual "bad boys" label is a step too far; such tags tend to stick long after the problem has been resolved, to the side's unwarranted disadvantage. Also, I think you risk dealing inconsistently with the sides. If Team A is known to be awkward and the FB nudges a chasing winger in the first minute, are you more likely to card than if you had no knowledge of their discipline problems? I feel I personally would be - so I'd rather not know.

 

[SimonSmith]

Agree.

The only exception is if I know I am being sent to handle teams with a history of trouble between them and the Society knows it needs a firm hand at the tiller.

There are two teams in Hampshire where I got sent once....the first match back after a longish break in which HMConstabulary had been involved I believe.

 

[Deeps]

Agree.

The only exception is if I know I am being sent to handle teams with a history of trouble between them and the Society knows it needs a firm hand at the tiller.

There are two teams in Hampshire where I got sent once....the first match back after a longish break in which HMConstabulary had been involved I believe.

It so much depends on individuals. The refreshing thing is that players tend to move on and, now and again, a new box of is opened.

Last weekend I picked up a game from a colleague for the reason that that colleague had had 'history' with one of the teams. What the re appointer had failed to note was that I had had 'history' with the other and if I am not mistaken it is one of Simon's former overseas teams for which he had had to have his firm hand ready. I naively thought that, in the two intervening seasons since I declined to referee that team, there would have been a change of personnel such that I was prepared to give the club the benefit of the doubt.

Wrong! What was purportedly their first representative team turned out to be their former first representative team; most of whom I had waived various coloured cards at in the past. Well, with my colleagues problem team I got on like a house on fire. They were well disciplined, well lead and played good football. I got there eventually with my 'betes noires' with only one YC but regretted the encounter. Bad language, temper tantrums, poor sportsmanship but above all their bad manners made me regret I had taken the appointment. It would seem that leopards don't change their spots.

Thanks for the tip Simon though you don't make it clear as to whether HM Constabulary were in attendance or were in fact one of the teams; I have the Hampshire branch to contend with in a couple of weeks.

 

[SimonSmith]

HMC had been called after punches had been thrown I believe.

Whenever I reffed them, they were as good as gold. 18 carat gold, admittedly