Where's the Kick From?

[pwhaling]

I've just finished a marathon week of rugby, and had two errors in law that I made pointed out to me, both around the location of a penalty kick. I've checked the good book and can't seem to find a clear answer to the points made. I was wondering if someone could point me in the correct direction.

Here they are:
1) Penalty about two meters from touch. I awarded the penalty at the place of infringement. The referee coach told me I had to move it in 5 meters. Unless I'm missing something, the relevant law is:
21.2 (a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’ goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of infringement.
On mention of distance from touch.

2) Offside on a kick. White 15 kicks the ball, white 4 starts moving forward. I offer the penalty at the place of infringement or the scrum at the place of the kick. Two separate referee coaches tell me the penalty is where the ball lands or scrum from where the kick is taken. In reading law 11, there seems to be very little direction as to the location of the kick. Should I be looking somewhere else?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Paul

 

[ddjamo]

as described above the coach was wrong in both.

 

[Phil E]

as described above the referee coach was wrong in both.

Not unusual in the USA.

For No.2 the relevant law is 11.4(f)

[LAWS]Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team
chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the
offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is
formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]

Note that the penalty is at the place of infringement (where he was offside), or where the offending team last played the ball (where they kicked it from).

There is nothing about where the ball lands.

 

[OB..]

There is nothing about where the ball lands.

They are mis-remembering 10.4(o), which does refer to where the ball lands, but applies to a late tackle, not to offside.

 

[Davet]

Coach was wrong. both times.

 

[Taff]

Coach was wrong. both times.

But isn't it frightening that the "referee coaches" can balls it up?

How many good referees have they spoilt over the years? :frown:

 

[Phil E]

But isn't it frightening that the "referee coaches" can balls it up?

How many good referees have they spoilt over the years? :frown:

In the USA?.............................all of them. epper:

 

[SimonSmith]

But isn't it frightening that the "referee coaches" can balls it up?

How many good referees have they spoilt over the years? :frown:

I'm President of my local Society. I have to take the SimonT approach sometimes and not offer an informed opinion.

 

[Dickie E]

I wonder how an issue like this is addressed in a systemic manner

 

[pwhaling]

Thanks everyone for the help. It good to know that I got this right. As for the rest, I'll just stand to the side (in all fairness the one referee coach and another referee involved in the offside at the kick were both English born).

 

[Dickie E]

Thanks everyone for the help. It good to know that I got this right. As for the rest, I'll just stand to the side (in all fairness the one referee coach and another referee involved in the offside at the kick were both English born).

I wonder how an issue like this is addressed in a systemic manner

Silly me - answer is obvious. Don't fall into trap of taking Pomanians seriously.

 

[Ian_Cook]

They are mis-remembering 10.4(o), which does refer to where the ball lands, but applies to a late tackle, not to offside.

Although, if they are old enough, they might be remembering the old Law (pre 2000)

From the 1996 Laws of the Game

[LAWS]LAW 24. OFF-SIDE

Off-side means that a player is in a position in which he is out of the game and is liable to penalty. In general play the player is in an off-side position because he is in front of the ball when it has been last played by another player of his team.
In play at scrummage, ruck, maul or line-out the player is offside because he remains or advances in front of the line or place stated in, or otherwise infringes, the relevant sections of this Law.

A. Off-Side in General Play

(1)A player is in an off-side position if the ball has been

• kicked, or
• touched, or
• is being carried by one of his team behind him.

(2)There is no penalty for being in an off-side position unless:-
(a) the player plays the ball or obstructs an opponent, or
(b)he being within ten meters of an opponent waiting to play the ball or of the place where the ball pitches does not retire without delay and without interfering with the opponent, or
(c)he, on all other occasions, moves towards the opponents waiting to play the ball or to the place where the ball pitches, before he is put on-side.

Exceptions:-
(i)When an off-side player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a player carrying it, he is "accidentally offside". Play should be allowed to continue unless the infringing team obtains an advantage, in which case a scrummage shall be formed at that place.

(ii)A player who receives an unintentional throw-forward is not off-side.

Penalty:- Penalty kick at the place of infringement, or, at the option of the non-offending team, a scrummage at the place where the ball was last played by the offending team. If the latter place is in In-goal, the penalty kick shall be taken or the scrummage shall be formed five meters from the goal line, on a line through the place.

For an infringement of (2)(c) by more than one player, the place of infringement will be that of the off-side player closest to the player waiting for the ball or where the ball pitches.
[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Although, if they are old enough, they might be remembering the old Law (pre 2000)

I am so glad you posted that -- it clears up for me why I always have this insistent feeling in me that where the ball lands is the place(indeed I have rechecked the laws several times to reassure myself it isn't the case).

So there's my answer - it's a memory built in my playing days, long ago, when indeed it was PK where it lands or scrum where they kicked it. I must say I like that old way better.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Confusion and mixing up different Laws is not a difficult mistake to make if you do not revisit the good book or a forum site like this regularly.

Referee Coaches / Assessors need regular "training updates" as much as referees to keep them at top performance levels.

 

[PaulDG]

But isn't it frightening that the "referee coaches" can balls it up?

How many good referees have they spoilt over the years? :frown:

Hey, they can't even spell metres, so we shouldn't be that surprised they can't remember the Law Book..