[Law] Why isn't this offisde under 10m law ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

At 4mins 53 s YouTube time...
https://youtu.be/g-d0H3SO8og

Are we all ok with tthat try?
This matter has come up in other threads but when is a charge-down different form a touch ?
Or does the definition of a charge-down include all attempts at a charge -down ?

A lot of Quins players were questioning the decision.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Law 10,7,b,iv

I'm not so good at copying and posting from lawbook. So below may not be exact


7. Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:

a. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.

b. An opponent of that player:
i. Carries the ball five metres; or

ii. Passes the ball; or

iii. Kicks the ball; or

iv. Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS].This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down. [/LAWS]

That was played, but not charged down,
So 10m applied and try should be disallowed

Actually it's really not clear and a clarification would be good

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

[LAWS].This is known as the 10-metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not when the kick is charged down. [/LAWS]

That was played, but not charged down,
So 10m applied and try should be disallowed

Actually it's really not clear and a clarification would be good

I think you r correct, I'd get grief either way I called it., but in this case I would have been wrong.


It is the "Everbody's on" MYTH

 

[crossref]

I think you r correct, I'd get grief either way I called it., but in this case I would have been wrong.


It is the "Everbody's on" MYTH

I suspect the answer is

Green play the ball immediately after its kicked ... That counts as a charge down , and 10m law doesn't apply

Green play the ball when it comes down, that is not a charge down, so 10m applies still

In this case green play it quick enough to count as a chargedown

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Thanks Crossref. That is the key to me. Some have argued that a charge down has to have actually been charged downnfor it to count under this exemption from the 10m law. Others say that a minimal touch like this is a charge-down.
I would tend with the former and not the latter but I'd really like a clarification.

 

[Ian_Cook]

10.4c does not apply here.

10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player :

c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately
behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on
that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post
or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to
where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-
metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not
when the kick is charged down.

The emboldened part is the key bit here. Law 10.4c is designed so that an opponent catching the ball isn't confronted with opponents the moment he field or catches the ball. It gives him 10m of territory (used to be a 10m circle) to work with.

When the ball is touched in flight, 10.4c is off the table, and the rest of Law 10 applies, particularly 10.7b iv

[LAWS]10.7 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when

b. An opponent of that player :
iv. Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it. [/LAWS]

Touched in flight by the opponents has been called as "Play on" for as far back as I can remember.

The awarding of that try was the correct decision.

 

[chbg]

A literal understanding of the Law is that a 'charge down' has a component of knocking the ball downwards, especially considering the only description of it is a picture under Law 11 (to distinguish it from a knock-on). There is no definition. So I do have sympathy with your POV.

However I have always (I think) interpreted the action shown in the video as being a 'charge down', so do not have an issue with the decision.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I suspect the answer is

Green play the ball immediately after its kicked ... That counts as a charge down , and 10m law doesn't apply

Green play the ball when it comes down, that is not a charge down, so 10m applies still

In this case green play it quick enough to count as a chargedown

My bold in your quote for emphasis

Now I think you are not correct. a charge down is not in the definitions, however, it is well described an specific in law 11 Knock on:

5. The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:

a.A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).


A charge down only defined in and according to law 11 requires a knock forward.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

A literal understanding of the Law is that a 'charge down' has a component of knocking the ball downwards, especially considering the only description of it is a picture under Law 11 (to distinguish it from a knock-on). There is no definition. So I do have sympathy with your POV.

However I have always (I think) interpreted the action shown in the video as being a 'charge down', so do not have an issue with the decision.

from my previous post, there is as close as we get to a definition in law 11 as in my previous post. until today, I would have allowed the try and i think that is status quo, but it ain't law

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

When the ball is touched in flight, 10.4c is off the table, and the rest of Law 10 applies, particularly 10.7b iv

[LAWS]10.7 Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when

b. An opponent of that player :
iv. Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it. [/LAWS]

Touched in flight by the opponents has been called as "Play on" for as far back as I can remember.

.

I pretty sure the law you posted still says 10.4c still applies in regard to an offside player.

A big yep to the second part as "far back as I can remember". Maybe we were wrong, or at least wrong since the 10m law came in.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I pretty sure the law you posted still says 10.4c still applies in regard to an offside player.

Here is an important thing to consider.

In order to PK under the 10M law, you have to know where the ball is going to land or be caught or fielded by the opponent (because that is the reference point from where you measure the 10M), and you have to know that before the ball is touched by the Green player, because as soon as he does, everyone downfield is onside. How do you know that Black 7 was not 11m on his own side of where the ball would have landed had it not been touched in flight?

To blow for offside under the 10M, you would have to blow your whistle after the ball is kicked, and before the Green player touches it.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Here is an important thing to consider.

In order to PK under the 10M law, you have to know where the ball is going to land or be caught or fielded by the opponent (because that is the reference point from where you measure the 10M), and you have to know that before the ball is touched by the Green player, because as soon as he does, everyone downfield is onside. How do you know that Black 7 was not 11m on his own side of where the ball would have landed had it not been touched in flight?

To blow for offside under the 10M, you would have to blow your whistle after the ball is kicked, and before the Green player touches it.

Considered, but not enough to unclog my brain. The ball, despite being tipped, is going to come down or be caught and this will establish the 10m line. As far as I know there is no time constraint on when the whistle must be blown and that the only determination of 10m would be where it lands or is caught.

10.4c does not apply here.

10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player :

c. Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately
behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on
that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands, even if it hits a goal post
or crossbar first. If this involves more than one player, then the player closest to
where the ball lands or is caught is the one penalised. This is known as the 10-
metre law and still applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but not
when the kick is charged down.

.

The blue, bold, italic indicates to me a tipped ball continues as a kick as it does not meet the DOWN part of chargedown.

Mind you, this is the absolute first I've questioned this situation. My first post in this thread does not agree with this epiphany.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Considered, but not enough to unclog my brain. The ball, despite being tipped, is going to come down or be caught and this will establish the 10m line.

No, because once the ball is touched in flight, there is no longer any offside (except, of course for any of HIS team-mates between he and the opponents goal-line)

As far as I know there is no time constraint on when the whistle must be blown and that the only determination of 10m would be where it lands or is caught.

There is no time constraint, but there is a constraint of circumstances.

First, a player downfield is not offside under the 10M law until a team-mate kicks the ball.

Second, you can't rule a player downfield as offside until you have an idea where the ball is going to land because you have no reference point from which to measure the 10M. If you do, then you are guessing!

The blue, bold, italic indicates to me a tipped ball continues as a kick as it does not meet the DOWN part of chargedown.

I think the intent was to make sure that a player catching or attempting to field the ball would not put an opponent onside. IMO, this is another example of (surprise, surprise) badly worded law.

Mind you, this is the absolute first I've questioned this situation. My first post in this thread does not agree with this epiphany.

Its the first time I've ever seen it questioned. For mine, that try was legit all day long, because that is how the Law has always been interpreted, at least as long as I have played and refereed the game, and understood the Law - touched in flight is "play on"

There is, and always has been, a difference between what the Laws say, and what they mean!

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

No, because once the ball is touched in flight, there is no longer any offside (except, of course for any of HIS team-mates between he and the opponents goal-line)

I cannot find the law that indicates once the ball is in flight, there is no longer 10m law. The 10m law is an exception from the 2 areas of law we have already quoted. The only remote definition of a chargedown is in law11, and in chargedown picture. Both indicate a forward and down direction of the ball.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Its the first time I've ever seen it questioned. For mine, that try was legit all day long, because that is how the Law has always been interpreted, at least as long as I have played and refereed the game, and understood the Law - touched in flight is "play on"

There is, and always has been, a difference between what the Laws say, and what they mean!

Me also. I think you know you last 2 paragraphs are an appeal to tradition.

I've said this before, rugby is not a place to find brain surgeons. Maybe we f ed this up and have been wrong all along with no one willing to tell the emperor that he is naked.

 

[Dickie E]

pick the bones out of this:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&clarlaw=11&clarification=81

 

[Ian_Cook]

pick the bones out of this:

https://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=10&clarification_era=upto&clarlaw=11&clarification=81

[LAWS]"2. If the ball is not charged down but is played or touches an opposition player and a player from the kicker’s side is within the 10 metre area in front of the kick that player is liable to penalty in accordance with Law 11.4(f).[/LAWS]

Jesus! The Law Lords appear to have either completely misunderstood the question asked by the ARU, or they are saying that the player touching the ball in flight IS the opposition player playing the ball, and the 10M is measured back towards the kicker from him! What the actual fcuk?

The appear to be implying that, in the scenario in the OP's match, only team-mates of the kicker who are within 10m downfield of the kick are offside under the 10m Law, so Black 7 is good to go because he is well beyond that 10m...

Its the right answer (Black 7 is onside) but a real cockeyed way of getting to it!

 

[crossref]

The clarification seems to be saying that was not a chargedown and so Itoje was caught by the 10m and should have been PK

This Law needs a rewrite

 

[Ian_Cook]

The clarification seems to be saying that was not a chargedown and so Itoje was caught by the 10m and should have been PK

Nope, that is not what it says at all. Read it again

[LAWS]"2. If the ball is not charged down but is played or touches an opposition player and a player from the kicker’s side is within the 10 metre area in front of the kick that player is liable to penalty in accordance with Law 11.4(f)."
[/LAWS]

Its saying that any player within 10m in front of the kick, i.e. out to 10m ahead of the kicker, is offside under the 10m Law. (11.4f was the equivalent of 10.4c in 2011) so anyone not within that 10m is onside. Looking at the video, Itoje was at least 20m ahead of the kick, therefore, outside the 10m, therefore, onside.

This Law needs a rewrite

Yes