Why so many resets?

Rit Hinners

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I first became involved in rugby in 1972. I was heavily involved with the game as a player, ref or coach for some 30 years at which time I lost all contact with the game for some 6 years. In 2008 I subscribed to the Setanta channel and was amazed. (Keep in mind that what I am discussing here is what I'm seeing on the telly.)

In my previous 30 years of rugby, if there were 40 scrums in a game you might have two or three resets. My recent experience is that you need to have about 3 resets before having a successful scrum.

What has changed? Have coaches decided that time spent practicing srcummaging is wasted and thererfore the skills necessary just aren't there?

I will list things that I see as different than the way they were in my day and ask that you discuss their relevance to the problem.

The BIND
It looks to me that the front row have changed their bind points.
Before props would bind high on the hooker grabbing the button area of the collar of his jersy. This provided a tight shoulder to shoulder bind. The angle of the arm to the body was fully extended (~90*) and unlikely to change.

Today props seem to be binding to the hooker's hips. The angle of the arm is much less (~30*). While it might provide a tighter hip-hip bind the arm is much more likely to ride up and loosen the bind.

Another item that I see that has relevance to the bind is the change in uniforms. Previously, jersies where made of strong, heavy cloth that that could easily be grabbed and held on to. Today they look like super-hero outfits: thightly form-fitting and made of thin slippery materials that appear to be difficult to hang onto.

The FLANKERS
In my day wing fowards were well aware of their role in keeping their props hips tight and so kept their shoulders in the props "nitch" and drove in and foward. If they were interested in what was going on with the ball they kept their heads down and watched it on the ground.

Today, I see most flankers seem to be uninterested with anything to do with the actual scrummage. They often have their heads up and, with their chest on the props back, are in no position to push. If their prop starts to give ground under the pressure they are more likely to pull their props hips out than dig in and push harder. Often they will even release their bind on their prop and push against the opposing prop with their arms.
I have been unable to find any law changes that allow a member of the back row to suddenly decide to join the front row but I never see them being pinged for this behavior.

Anyone else have any observations/opinions on this issue?
 

Dixie


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Jerseys changed at the instigation of Sir Clive Woodward, in the drive towards winning the World Cup. He gave Nike a photo of a tackler being dragged along while hanging onto a jersey, and challenged Nike to make it less easy to grasp. No-one seems to have considered the front-row bind, though It is indeed an issue.

I'll leave those more versed in the FR to discsuss changes to the bind, but from my introduction to the game in 1974 in English schools rugby, the props grasped their hooker's waist. Simple geographical preference, I guess.

Flankers - don't get me talking about flankers:mad: Their coming to grips with any opposition player is still specifically proscribed, but rarely if ever penalised. Equally, their habit of getting to an angle of 90 degrees to the direction of the scrum, and driving the props inwards would not be possible if they maintained a full-arm bind to their second-row as required.

IMO the biggest reason for the collapse has been the introduction of what is known as the "hit" - that coming together to lock the two packs into a single unit. The players used to do it in their own time and of their own accord, and would have a little rejig so that everyone was ready - and then the ball would be put in. Noweadays, the ref controls the engagement, creating a "hit after which the ball goes in immediately. If you come off second best at the hit, the oppo has a huge advantage and you lose the scrum. So props at the higher levels just hit the deck, and hope for a reset so they can have another go. Many feel that a reversion to the old days, with the ref perhaps giving the SH permissionn to put the ball in once it's all square and steady, would resolve most scrum issues. But there is too much blazer capital invested in the "safety" element of the current arrangemetns for that to happen.
 

crossref


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It never occurred to me that the CTPE could be creating the 'hit' problem rather than an attempt to manage it. But it makes perfect sense. The coordinated hit is only possible because of the referee's generous count down and - indeed - because you can be certain the the opposition are ready as well (otherwise if they weren't doing the same the whole scrum be certain to collapse)

I have seen kit manufacturers advertising front-row jerseys with looser patches of materal to bind on.
 

OB..


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IMO the biggest reason for the collapse has been the introduction of what is known as the "hit" - that coming together to lock the two packs into a single unit. The players used to do it in their own time and of their own accord, and would have a little rejig so that everyone was ready - and then the ball would be put in. Noweadays, the ref controls the engagement, creating a "hit after which the ball goes in immediately.

You seem to be implying that bringing in "Crouch & hold - Engage" caused the hit. I remember it the other way round. Referee control of the engagement was brought in because the hit was getting out of control.
 

Rit Hinners

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I was a hooker in the early 70's, spent most of my life/playing time as a scrumhalf though.

Back in the day (don's his Ol'Gaffer cap) the packs would bind up about 3 yards apart, look our opposite in the eye when we were ready, and slam together like two Bighorn Rams. The impact was heard/felt half a block down the street and all was fine. Seldom would the scrums collapse and I never met or heard of anyone being injured.

Now they are patty-caked together and there are issues. I can't see how "the hit" can be the problem unless the problem is that there just isn't enough of it. How can there be a hit issue from 9 inches when it wasn't an issue from 9 feet?


So, front row jerseys with loose patches on them?
Really?
How quaint....

I havent posted about rucks yet but one of my points on them was again being the new kit. How can you secure a good bind on the run to do proper rucking, as a unit, instead of this one guy pushing here and another pushing there? Don't forget the backs, they're rucking as much as the flankers in todays game. Don't they need "loose patches" too?
 

Rit Hinners

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I have no clue what a barsteward is. Could either be a reference to my parentage, which, given the context, I'd doubt or some job done in a pub.


I have a penchant for run-on sentences.
 

colin dagger


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Rit,
What we see in Subbies Rugby is a combination of the following!
1. Fat guys in tight nylon jerseys. they cannot get a grip let alone a bind

2. CTPE actually creates a faster and harder hit than the traditional hit.

3. At higher levels smart FR's will dump a scrum if they loose the hit an it suits the tactics of the match.

4. They will also continue this whilst the ref lets them. After all FR think the game is all about them beating their opp in the scrum.

5. You should be seeing refs allowing play to continue if the FR has gone down if the ball is moving out. Its a way of ignoring the gamesmenship and playing rugby.

Will it ever stop?:Looser:

Better quest is Has it ever stopped!!!!:eek:
 

Dixie


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5. You should be seeing refs allowing play to continue if the FR has gone down if the ball is moving out. Its a way of ignoring the gamesmenship and playing rugby.
I take it you're not particularly fond of your house and car, and would be quite happy to sell them to pay the compensation.
8.3(d) Collapsed scrum. Advantage must not be applied when a scrum collapses. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.
 

OB..


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2. CTPE actually creates a faster and harder hit than the traditional hit.

CTPE and its predecessor were brought in to control the hit, which was becoming dangerous. It was no longer the folding together that you can see in old films and current park games.
 

Rit Hinners

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I take it you're not particularly fond of your house and car, and would be quite happy to sell them to pay the compensation.

It's the collapse itself that is dangerous. If a resolution is immenent why ask the question again and risk another collapse that might actually break a neck?

What needs to be worked out is the foot placement and binds to stop the plague of collapses. The quanity of collapses has drastically increased over the last few years. Some things must have been changed in that time. The ones creating the problems need to be worked out and fixed.
 

Dixie


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What needs to be worked out is the foot placement and binds to stop the plague of collapses. The quanity of collapses has drastically increased over the last few years. Some things must have been changed in that time. The ones creating the problems need to be worked out and fixed.
The South Africans have been working very hard on this in their off-season. It'll be interesting to watch their refs in action at the 6N, and in the coming season's S.14.
 

Davet

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What is dangerous is continued pushing by the back of the scrum when the front has collapsed.

This is more commion at low level than high.

At elite level the players are (or should be) sufficiently aware of what is going on to deal with the situation, and stop pushing.

At Bogacaster 4ths where the locks could each compete for the starring role in "Of mice and men" things are different.
 
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