World rugby Laws, no thanks says Sarries

[Browner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30196682

"They can be the same referees, but we need to employ (become the puppeteer for) them"

FTFY Nigel !

 

[OB..]

"During the week the referees could go into schools, teach, encourage other referees and become full pros."
Does he really think the referees have nothing to do during the week?! Has he tried talking to them?

I can't believe he really thinks it makes sense for the referees to referee in a way that suits premiership coaches regardless of what the rest of the world is doing. So I wonder what his real motive is.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I've always maintained that Wray is a prick, and this confirms, well, for me anyway

PRL controlled and paid referees is a nightmare scenario for the game. The next thing they will want is control over the Laws of the Game and the Regulations governing it. This must ultimately lead to the entire separation of the club game from the rest.

Lets be clear about this. PRL does not have the good of rugby at heart. The only thing they are interested in are the club owner's bottom lines... the money. The recent stouche over European Rugby is clear evidence if this.

Currently the RFU and WR are two layers of oversight that act as the Guardians of the Game. Without them, PRL would be like a runaway train.

 

[crossref]

What happens in other competitions, are the referees appointed by the same body who organises the competition?

 

[The Fat]

There's two and a half minutes of my life I'll never get back.
Numpty.

 

[Browner]

So I wonder what his real motive is.

. ???

 

[Simon Thomas]

What happens in other competitions, are the referees appointed by the same body who organises the competition?

Others will know what happens elsewhere (Ian, Dickie, Simon S etc) but my understanding is that it is the Union not the organising body that appoints the referees. however it may be that the organising body employs a Referee Analyst or Manager (PRL with Geraint, Ed Morrison's new job). So it will be IRB, FIRA (or Europe Rugby now) or Home Union.

 

[SimonSmith]

We (that is to say, the Ref Soc) appoints, except for Youth which has a captive group of referees

I can't guarantee that holds true across the US. As the structure here continues to Balkanize, Wray's dream could come true here.

 

[crossref]

Others will know what happens elsewhere (Ian, Dickie, Simon S etc) but my understanding is that it is the Union not the organising body that appoints the referees. however it may be that the organising body employs a Referee Analyst or Manager (PRL with Geraint, Ed Morrison's new job). So it will be IRB, FIRA (or Europe Rugby now) or Home Union.

but in some cases won't it be the union who organise the competition?

At the very grass roots level we have age grade festivals.

Festival managers take it for granted that they will have a referees meeting at which the give out instructions about how their festival is to be refereed. As we have discussed before this wil even extend to announcing variations to the Laws of rugby that festival organisers (in their misguided pomp) feel will be improvements.

So I wouldn't single out Wray here, I think its human nature for competion organisers to want the competition reffed their way.

there are lots of pro competitions, I beleive some are organised by unions, some independently (?) It would be intereting to know in how many cases the organisers also appoint the referees.

In S15 we often hear that the games are refereed differently from the premiership - surely thats as a result of the influence of the competion organisers?

 

[OB..]

Festival managers take it for granted that they will have a referees meeting at which the give out instructions about how their festival is to be refereed. As we have discussed before this wil even extend to announcing variations to the Laws of rugby that festival organisers (in their misguided pomp) feel will be improvements.

In my limited experience of County festivals, the briefing is to ensure that everybody is playing the same interpretation of the NRoP and explain some admin matters. I have not come across invented variations.

 

[crossref]

In my limited experience of County festivals, the briefing is to ensure that everybody is playing the same interpretation of the NRoP and explain some admin matters. I have not come across invented variations.

We discussed one just a week or two ago : a festival played where the organisers banned #8 pickups.

Common festival law variations I have come across are
- no hand-offs to the face
- no #8 pick ups
- no kicking a loose ball
- all conversions to be taken in front of the posts

In all cases these lead to conflict as there are always a number of player / referee / coach who never got the message.

On county games : last year if you recall, there was an edict that referees couldn't use YC in county games (!) I think that's a very good example of a competition organiser dictating how their competition should be refereed --- and managing to get the people who appoint referees, the Societies, to agree to that change. (I got that memo)

 

[Simon Thomas]

but in some cases won't it be the union who organise the competition?

At the very grass roots level we have age grade festivals.

Festival managers take it for granted that they will have a referees meeting at which the give out instructions about how their festival is to be refereed. As we have discussed before this wil even extend to announcing variations to the Laws of rugby that festival organisers (in their misguided pomp) feel will be improvements.

So I wouldn't single out Wray here, I think its human nature for competion organisers to want the competition reffed their way.

there are lots of pro competitions, I beleive some are organised by unions, some independently (?) It would be intereting to know in how many cases the organisers also appoint the referees.

Is S15 we often here that the games are refereed differently from the premiership - surely thats as a result of the influence of the competion organisers?

yes of course it is the Union, or delegated sub-Unions (in England the Regions and County Unions, and Schools Union) who are the official organisers of competitions (Leagues, Cups, Merit Tables, etc) of 15 a side rugby match at adult and youth down to U13 even.

Under their delegated powers they can amend certain regds etc but not the main laws.

As you say younger age groups Festival organisers seem to be a law amendment unto themselves and do whatever they think best. In our CB the Society is not involved.

 

[crossref]

here's the memo.

Now wouldn't you say this is the RFU Rugby Events and Competitions Dept dictating to referee societies, a variation to the Laws that will apply in their competition?

I guess someone will say -- ah, this is the union, they are entitled to change the Laws for a particular competition if they want to. Technically that might be right (although I am not sure the IRB give unions to power to change just any Law they feel like?). But at the end of the day it's the same thing: competion organiser decides that the Laws of rugb don't suit them, so tell referees there will be a change in Law, for this competition.

I can't imagine even Nigel Wray proposing this misguided Law change (and don't understand why referees agreed to it)

October 2013
Memo from the RFU
To: All Society Secretaries
Clarification below to the U16 County Team Managers and Coaches
Following a number of queries to the Rugby Events & Competitions Department regarding squad sizes and yellow/red cards for the U16 county games which are currently taking place.

Yellow Cards: In the event of a yellow card the player will be replaced for 10 minutes – no team is to go down to 14 aside.

Red Cards: In the event of a red card the player will be replaced for the remainder of the match – no team is to go down to 14 aside.

 

[Simon Thomas]

On county games : last year if you recall, there was an edict that referees couldn't use YC in county games (!) I think that's a very good example of a competition organiser dictating how their competition should be refereed --- and managing to get the people who appoint referees, the Societies, to agree to that change. (I got that memo)

Yes that still is in place this season and was an RFU instruction through the proper ,management channels to Societies.
County age group rugby is a serious standard.
These age group County matches are used as selection chances for Divisional and England squads, and also with Academy scouts present.
The guidance request to keep 15 on the pitch comes from national & divisional coaches / selectors.
I respect their pov and had a good discussion with some of them at the recent Hampshire v Sussex U18 match, which had three England squad players in action.
Also the argument is that such matches (on a Sunday) should be refereed by someone two or even three levels (so Panel or Group even, not just a L6 at U18 level), with appointed ARs, and that any YC / RC player should be replaced to keep it 15 a side.

I have been to three U18 matches this season and in one case a very decent L7 referee really struggled for physical pace and game management reaction speed. His performance did slow the match up and was not good enough at the breakdown. Some coaches and parents were complaining post-match and I had some sympathy. For some of these players these selection matches are part of the Academy contract process so can make or break their future career.

Last Saturday I saw the son of an old team-mate of mine make an impressive debut at L5 at the match I was Observing. He has gone to University locally, as he was turned down by a Premiership Club for a contract after three seasons in their Academy, living away from home and at the school local attached to the academy. He is an England International at U15 & 18 levels.

He is gutted to have not made it, and it demonstrates just how competitive it is at these levels.

 

[crossref]

All valid points - I think you are making Nigel Wray's case for him.

 

[OB..]

competion organiser decides that the Laws of rugb don't suit them, so tell referees there will be a change in Law, for this competition.

Are you theorising, or do you have some actual examples we could discuss?

 

[crossref]

Are you theorising, or do you have some actual examples we could discuss?

OB there is one above: the competition organisers (RFU in this case) have ruled that YC and RC players can be replaced in County U16 games. they have instructed referee societies to referee accordingly.

 

[Ian_Cook]

In S15 we often hear that the games are refereed differently from the premiership - surely thats as a result of the influence of the competion organisers?

Not the same thing. SANZAR organises and appoints the referees for SR, but it is also an International organisation that organises the Rugby Championship and still responsible to the NZRU, ARU and SARU for everything they do.

What Wray wants is for PRL to be in charge of the referees, and they are responsible only to the Clubs. There is no accountability back to the RFU for what they do. They are a Law unto themselves.


Also, it is utterly ludicrous to suggest that the way junior competitions, festivals and other special events are run in regards to minor changes in Laws has any relevance whatsoever to how Elite Professional Rugby competitions are run. When SANZAR wants to trial a proposed Law change, they still have to get approval from World Rugby to do so. This would not be the case for PRL.

 

[crossref]

I agree with you that it would be undesirable to have the PRL in charge of referees for the Premiership.

My point is that ALL competition organisers want to be in charge of the referees for their competition, so that they can tweak the way the competition is refereed.

Whether it's PRL, SANZAR, the RFU, the RWC, or a sunday festival organiser, they all think that they should be able to tweak the referees, the way the laws are interpreted, even the Laws themselves to suit their own special tournament.

(that's why we see last minute law clarifications just before each RWC)

Whoever is doing it, it's always undesirable.

Yes, in some case the competition organisers have the right to do it, but it's always undesirable.

Taking the case of U16 County rugby in RFUland : some Laws the IRB explicitly say that local unions can change (eg subs), but the handling of RC and YC isn't one of them : are the RFU actually technically allowed to change that Law?

You've all jumped on Wray as if what he wants is outrageous. I am just saying its the same as every other competition organiser wants.

 

[Browner]

Wrays suggestion is a direct Conflict of interest for me – rugby clubs / business model owners must be clearly separate from the game’s governance.