Yellow Cards

[ex-lucy]

Implored them? why not. time off. "Captain please. You have X minutes left. I have told you. If you wish to know, ask me at down time. If your players continue to appeal for time, it will be taken as dissent by me, so I advise you to prevent them. Do you understand?" Clear message, and an escalation.

ok, next time ...but after prematch brief and explained to them a few times at half time etc about going thru teh capt ... you'd think the msg would have got thru by now ... hmmm

Point 1: You have just sent someone off. And yet the Red PK taker is on the ball? Why not change your card procedure - separate the teams, get both teams back and AWAY from the mark. Then deal with the RC, ensuring both teams know what will happen next. Then you can walk to the mark, put the time on, make the mark, and away.

i did most of that ... as i was filling in the score card name, time etc red capt, aware of score and time, wanted to know what we were going to start with. i said pk over here .. walked to the mark .. said "wait" as i wanted to ensure defence was 10m (on their try line) so i turned to face the defence .. off red player went ... from nr the mark.

Point 2: You only need to say "Wait" or "No" once, not several times. Again - if a player things you saying it once isn't good enough, then you have clearly not got them controlled. I would guess that you sometimes let people off the hook - i.e. ask players to get back, they don't and then you don't PK them. Calling several times for release, and only PK on the 3rd or 4th call. etc.

They werent controlled. That's the captains responsibility. i think the close score line and time left increased their anxiety etc but the capt wasnt helping me much. i tried slowing matters down by slowing down pens and talking to players to calm them ... tna
i say 'release' once. if i have to say it twice .. that's a pk.

The best response to "but ref" that I have found is a simple fingers to lips and a gentle "shhhhh". It calms you down, and doesn't inflame situations. BUT think about your actions. He was allowed on the mark early. You obviously approached the mark when you weren't ready etc. Could you have prevented this situation from occurring by doing something differently?

i did say 'shhh' several times before this. 'allowed' on the mark?... he took initiative.

And finally - get yourself videoed with a connected mike. I expect your "good comms" and situation management aren't as good as you think!

it is an objective observation. Assessors and players say my comms are very good.
i refereed a u13s in the morning. 34-5. losing coach and spectators were beside thmeselves with my good refereeing and excellent communication to U13s - saying exactly what i wanted at each phase. no probs encountered and no requests for 'time' etc.

 

[ex-lucy]

i have a L13 appt on Saturday ... Watford 2nd xv v South Oxhey.
Local derby and Watford RFC v biggest council estate in Watford ....
this will require extremely good management.
my objectives:
safety (obviously)
enjoyment
no yellow cards (unless necessary)

 

[Davet]

Which may mean that you are suffering from "tall poppy syndrome".

I still find it hard to say cut your standards, but as my old coach used to say; if everyone else is in a line the one who creates the dog-leg creates the defensive weakness...

Whether we like it or not then different grades of rugby do have different standards - L13 refs do the job differently to Premiership refs, if they didn't then their game would be a nightmare of stoppages and cards.

As to accepting back chat, well - no ref should do so, but there are ways and ways. Players asking for time left near the end of a close game is quite common, they get anxious about how long they have to hold out for, it's really just human nature. You don't have to demand compliance to the Captains only thing ALL the time. Use the pre-match instruction as a tool to use when YOU feel it's escalating - so "2 minutes" as an answer is fine, you may then follow that with "10 seconds less than last time you asked - stop talking please" as a signal you are not going to be nagged. But responding immediately and always with "You can't talk to me - only the captain can", may - especially with colts - have the reverse effect to the endgendering of respect. You get seen as a prickly, authoritarian, humourless and unsympathetic character. Which would be grossly unfair. A little human warmth is not necessarily a sign of weakness.

Please don't take any of this as a personal attack - it's based on very little, or virtually no, personal knowledge of you or your games other than your posts, and is brought about by very general principles wihch you may well be applying anyway.

 

[Simon Thomas]

i do use "push back ..."
actually first pen was against red 3 round the blind side .. "get onside red" pointing at the player. "adv, pen adv to green. red 3 offside" and then told them exactly what i wanted at ensuing line out ... next ruck .. 2 was in front off back foot on open side .. "push back 2" ..no response other than look at me.. "move 2". pk. explained again about back feet.
2 did it again, other reds did it .. other than be very dictatorial and yc red 2 in first 5 mins for 3 offsides ... i cant see how else to manage this ...
but i have been told by the powers that be that i should be giving out less ycs.

consider if you are 'selling your decisions' to the players fully.

are you confronting rather than facilitating ?

it does seem a very high YC level, indicating no drop off in the ATP, warn, YC escalation process, which should be a classic curve (dropping off after PK at warning stage and finally a bigger drop off as you get to YC territory).

Your stats seem to be a linear straight line, with no drop off at each stage, indicating that someythoing in the communication process isn't working. Plus repeat YCs in one game, suggests they haven;t learnt after the first one.

 

[ex-lucy]

ST, sorry, you are going to have to explain those last two paras .. no hurry

 

[Jacko]

Am I the only one thinking that 27 YCs in 22 games isn't too bad? Not far over 1 per game. That's what I'm averaging (and KML as well I believe), and we're hardly being hauled over the coals for it. As for the RC, as long as you got it right, one in 27 games is no cause for concern. If you were reffing badly surely there'd be more as frustration boiled over.

 

[FlipFlop]

i do use "push back ..."

Good but...

"get onside red" pointing at the player.

"Back #3 red" would have been better, less verbose, and giving the player an action.

"adv, pen adv to green. red 3 offside"

Good but...

and then told them exactly what i wanted at ensuing line out

Players thinking "Pedantic Ref" if you are lucky, To$$er if you're not.

If you had used "back # colour", and then the signals comms etc, why do you need this? The only time I go to this is when I need to tell the captain - "too many offsides, YOU get them behind the back foot or my options are limited"

... next ruck .. 2 was in front off back foot on open side .. "push back 2" ..no response other than look at me.. "move 2". pk. explained again about back feet.

So now you set out your stall - you call it twice. Players will push this.... and another explanation (players thinking "what a to$$er this ref is")

2 did it again, other reds did it .. other than be very dictatorial and yc red 2 in first 5 mins for 3 offsides ... i cant see how else to manage this ...

Simple language. use it once. Too many offences, use the captain. Place the responsibility on HIM. If he fails, YC. YC's early on should do the trick - awarding them late on is not going to work. But where is the warning? Where is the using the captain? Where is the escalation?

Also - if the advantage is over - how about at the next stop in play - walking to the LO with the player and saying - "you're in front of the back foot - step back 1/2m". Perhaps those refs that let things go, instead manage the players like this? (and rule it not material)

Your response here has only strengthened my view that you say way too much - be more concise. Simpler words. Simpler requests. and use downtime to be direct and specific.

From teh sideline, the comms may seem good - but clearly the important view is that the players aren't receiving it. Good comms is stuff that the players react to. It really is that simple. If they don't react, it is not good comms, regardless of what an assessor says.

I also get the impression that your cards come late on in a game? (Correct?) Which is again a sign that you don't get the control and compliance early on. ST is talking about he escalation process - Ask, Tell, Penalise, Warn, Card. Via Captain - passing responsibility back. (Then cards are "we spoke earlier, YOU have given me no option. YC")

Also a quick last thought - what is your TONE and Body Language during a game. Often that changes what you say, and can lead to issues.

(As for the RC and PK taken - do all the marking of cards before starting your walk back, etc. Take your time, and get ready BEFORE approaching the mark. Plus it calms you back down!)

(I agree with ST and DaveT above)

 

[ex-lucy]

cheers flipflop , all good stuff and much food for thought

 

[niall murphy]

All good, and I see some of my own weaknesses being mentioned here. What about the team with no shirt numbers ? Do you just point at the player and say "You, red, back foot, please " ?

 

[PaulDG]

All good, and I see some of my own weaknesses being mentioned here. What about the team with no shirt numbers ? Do you just point at the player and say "You, red, back foot, please " ?

ex-lucy mostly does English league matches - regulations there require different shirt numbers for each player.

(Where there aren't different numbers, you just have to do your best - but, as you know, at those levels, the players don't listen anyway.)

 

[FlipFlop]

All good, and I see some of my own weaknesses being mentioned here. What about the team with no shirt numbers ? Do you just point at the player and say "You, red, back foot, please " ?

"Red - Back" would work, or "Red - Back foot".

No need for please - it's an instruction, not a request.

If it makes it hard for them to comply - suggest they get numbers to help the ref, but as they don't have them, it isn't your fault!

 

[Simon Thomas]

ST, sorry, you are going to have to explain those last two paras .. no hurry

the escalation process should be like a pyramid, involving fewer players and instances of occurrence.

you do a lot of asking, if they don't respond you tell them (fewer of them, fewer times), then you penalise them (12-20 PK in match is good imho) again fewer of them and fewer times) and finally if that fails then you warn (fewer, fewer) and finally you yellow card (again fewer fewer)

 

[Enrique]

the escalation process should be like a pyramid, involving fewer players and instances of occurrence.

I've always hold the theory that, at low/junior levels, the number of PKs decreases as the level of the ref increases because of closeness to "the spot" and better preventative calls. I had empyrical evidence of that last Saturday: one of the top 5 elite refs in the Union (and IMHO in the country too) ref'd "my" U17. The local championship is in its final stage, and having ref'd one of the quarte-finals he had no appointment for the day... and lives close to our club . PK count was about 50% of the average, the game flowed swiftly, everybody had fun (despite "we" lost 35-41) and I've seen one of the most beautiful games of the year. The morals of that? (a) Be fit, be fit, and improve constantly your management skills; and (b) It's a good idea to have elite refs in junior games when possible: the young players learn a lot, enjoy the game and have a view of what they may expect at upper levels.