UK emigration very quick to kick out a tax paying professional Rugby player.

[dave_clark]

Cheers OB..
It's always best to look at specific examples, rather than getting in a knot about generalities.
I feel the Pacific Island squads are the big losers here, with so many World-class players going overseas.

given our friend mr cook doesn't seem to be around any more, i guess someone else has to point out that the pacific island countries are perhaps the greatest beneficiary of players born and bred outside of their country. well, apart from england these days!

 

[Ricardowensleydale]

Not entirely off-topic Rory McIlroy (Golfer) says : I may not play in Rio Olympics. It's a shame, that pressure to choose sides (Team GB of Team Ireland) means this young sports star is considering not playing at all at the next Olympics.

Thankfully in Irish Rugby the question doesn't arise. (Neither in Irish boxing nor Athletics for that matter.)

Apologies if this has been covered before but what is happening for Sevens at the Olympics? Ulster born players represent Team GB or Eire or do they, like Rory McIlroy, have a choice?

 

[crossref]

tut, tut - you don't mean Ulster, it's not the same thing as Northern Ireland: Ulster was partitioned so that 3 of the 9 counties of Ulster are in Republic of Ireland, the other 6 are in the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster


But the answer to your question is: yhey have the choice.

per wikipedia again

The Olympic Council of Ireland and British Olympic Association have an agreement that Northern Irish sportspeople may compete for either team.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Council_of_Ireland

 

[L'irlandais]

Apologies if this has been covered before but what is happening for Sevens at the Olympics? Ulster born players represent Team GB or Eire Team Ireland or do they, like Rory McIlroy, have a choice?

Hi Richard,
crossref is right in saying, they will have the choice for Rugby Sevens. However I suspect there's a lot of pressure to play with an Ireland jersey, as Ireland is very provincial. But any Ulsterman, should have the free choice (ie. no pressure) to join Team BG if they like.
(Eire has a very English connotation meaning something like "banana republic".)
Also worth pointing out crossref, that Ulster Rugby covers clubs across the nine counties. It's one of the good things about Rugby in Ireland : that is Ulster rugby (in the broad sense) has never been anything other than an integral part of 32 county organisation.

The IRFU have been critised for their policy of using overseas players, aka the ‘granny rule’.
Yet, Thomas Waldrom – is a Kiwi with an English grandmother. Double standards?

...the pacific island countries are perhaps the greatest beneficiary of players born and bred outside of their country...

Hullo dave_clark,
I'm sure that Ian Cook, has an understanding of how complex the whole issue actually is.
That Aukland and Sydney are the largest Polynesian communities on the planet, I accept that.

Kaino and Muliaini both moved to New Zealand aged four and Sivivatu was 17, all 3 have been ABs.

Perhaps if playing U20 for a Pacific Island nations, then meant one could not then switch to the All Blacks, it would help protect amateur Rugby in that part of the world.

Closer to home we see Munster recruiting CJ Stander after a blinding performance at the U20 RWC last summer.

Ireland’s first serious foray into the area came in 1989, when Brian Smith was controversially parachuted in to the side shortly after arriving from Australia. Smith, who qualified on the ‘granny rule’ had already played for his homeland on five occasions.

I'm certainly not against an individual's free choice, but I do feel that the iRB must put an end to the cherry picking by Top-tier Rugby nations.

 

[Simon Thomas]

place of birth is completely different from nationality, loads of people are born in countries of which they are not entitled to be nationals.

For instance if a British couple are working as ex-patriates in (say) Russia on a working visa, then their child born during that time would not have Russian nationality.

or vice versa (unless the country is a member of the EU and post 1983 then it all get very complicated re UK nationality !). Mrs T is a Registrar of Births Deaths & Marriages, and they do the 'Citizenship' Ceremonies too - she gets lots of overseas folks who have kids born in UK who assume it gives their kid an automatic right to a British passport - wrong since 1983.

 

[crossref]

.
But any Ulsterman, should have the free choice (ie. no pressure) to join Team BG if they like.
.

But according to the rules, actually they won't all have that choice, as it only applies to the Northern Irish.
ie.
- those Ulstermen from the 6 counties that form Northern Ireland get the Olympic choice
- those Ulstermen from the 3 counties in ROI will be eligible for Ireland.

 

[L'irlandais]

Hi crossref,
I don't know for sure that that is true. :chin: When in doubt I prefer to specialise - so name me one player from the Ireland Sevens squad, who comes from Donegal, Cavan or Monaghan who has not been given a choice.

... she (Mrs. T) gets lots of overseas folks who have kids born in UK who assume it gives their kid an automatic right to a British passport - wrong since 1983.

Spot on Mrs. T my daughter has a British passport because I'm Irish, rather than because she herself was born in Hampshire.

 

[crossref]

actually Irelandais, I am with you.

in practice I imagine that if there ever arose an Ulsterman with Republic of Ireland nationality ( ie from one of the three Ulster counties in ROI) who nevertheless really wanted to contest the Olympics as part of Team GB, then (even though it doesn't seem to be covered by the rules) then no doubt a way would be found.

Can't imagine it would ever be wanted though.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I read recently that Rory McIlroy has some major issues already regarding which country he should represent at the Rio Olympics, and that he may even opt to not participate

How very sad that faith and citizenship are so difficult for a sportsman.

Rory is a Catholic boy from Belfast, who played his amateur golf for Ireland yet travels on a British passport

 

[crossref]

I read recently that Rory McIlroy has some major issues already regarding which country he should represent at the Rio Olympics, and that he may even opt to not participate

How very sad that faith and citizenship are so difficult for a sportsman.

Rory is a Catholic boy from Belfast, who played his amateur golf for Ireland yet travels on a British passport

It would probably help if we weren't called Team GB , as NI isn't even part of GB, thus alienating the Loyalists as well as the Nationalists!

Team UK anyone?

 

[dave_clark]

Hullo dave_clark,
I'm sure that Ian Cook, has an understanding of how complex the whole issue actually is.
That Aukland and Sydney are the largest Polynesian communities on the planet, I accept that.
Perhaps if playing U20 for a Pacific Island nations, then meant one could not then switch to the All Blacks, it would help protect amateur Rugby in that part of the world.

again, missing the point that the vast majority of the players were either born in NZ or moved there at a young age. why should someone who moved to a country aged 3 be barred from playing for them?

your point is technically valid, but it doesn't really apply to the all blacks.

edit - unless you have a handful of examples? more than happy to be proven wrong.

 

[L'irlandais]

Some on-line stats that show just how complex the whole issue is. No break down of what age these players moved countries however. dave see OB..'s post #18, we agree that place of birth is arbitary, it's just bandied about alot in the media :

RWC 2011 - Squad by squad look at players born abroad (birthplace in brackets)

RWC 2007 - Squad by squad look at players born abroad (birthplace in brackets)

 

[SimonSmith]

Ruaraidh Jackson - born in Northampton. I'm struggling to see him as pure English somehow!

It's not about place of birth, as others have referenced. My son was born in Virginia, USA; he's being brought up, deliberately, knowing that he is as much Scottish as he is American. (hearing him read Oor Wullie is as funny as ****)

There isn't a perfect answer to this, and setting a residency qualification seems about as neutral a policy as you can get.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with immigration or legal residence on an ongoing basis.

 

[crossref]

. My son was born in Virginia, USA; he's being brought up, deliberately, knowing that he is as much Scottish as he is American. .

it's like he won the lottery of birth, and you lost his ticket !

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

My son was born in Virginia, USA; he's being brought up, deliberately, knowing that he is as much Scottish as he is American. (hearing him read Oor Wullie is as funny as ****)

"Jings, Crivens help m'boab. PC Murdoch's got muckle greet feet. Am awa tae thae But n Ben wi ma bag o' Granny Sookers"

Gee dad thanks!

View attachment 2517

 

[didds]

which england cricket captain was born in Milan?

didds

 

[L'irlandais]

Ted Dexter, too easy.

Hendre Fourie: Ex-England flanker receives UK visa lifeline
All's well that ends well, mind you he will have to get his finger out and apply for a visa of a different type if he wishes to remain in the UK.

 

[Davet]

It would also mean a player could represent more than one nation. However I suspect it was merely a very abbreviated precis of his view.

It is - and I should know better than to be less than crystally and pedantically clear in this company.

England Scotland and Wales all have rules about who can play for them, as do other Unions - I am simply saying that an additional requirement should be that the player has a passport that syas he is a British Citizen; or at the very least has right of abode. Equivalent for other countries/unions.

Though of corse when Scotland becomes a separate sovereign country then I would expect the Scots passport to be a requirement there. Then since an independent Republic of Scotland - or Kingdom of Scotland - would leave us without a political entity called the United Kingdom (since it is no longer "united") then we would have a Republic or Kingdom of England (which subsumes the Principality of Wales), plus the Province of Northern Ireland (which is not part of the current United Kingdom) - and I would suggest that the enities that we may call "Scotland" and "England and Northern Ireland" should both, as new nations, be required to apply for EU membership.

Personally I would hive off Wales and NI from being included with England. Actually - at the moment - especially Northern Ireland. I wish the Loyalists over there would bugger off and be loyal to someone else, their violence and incomprehemsible behaviour over flying a flag and in pusuit of remaining part of the UK and Northern Ireland is not winning them any friends. How many civic buildings in YOUR town fly the Union Flag every day?As always, a small question has large ramifications. You really shouldn't get me started.

 

[Davet]

Ulster was partitioned so that 3 of the 9 counties of Ulster are in Republic of Ireland, the other 6 are in the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster

No they are not in the UK, nor in Great Britain - they are part of the sovereign Nation called "The United Kingom of Great Britain, and Northern Ireland"

Northern Ireland is not and never has been a "Kingdom", and is certainly not in Great Britain, therefore it is not one of the United Kingdoms of Great Britain - which following the Act of Union, are England and Scotland.

 

[Davet]

We can argue about residency rules and other ways of qualifying. What is unacceptable is using place of birth, because it can be somewhat arbitrary eg father in the forces or a diplomat​

Quite, and I have not suggested that place of birth is in any way relevant - merely that one should - in order of priority (ie pass hurdle a before b, and b before c)

a) hold a passport saying one is a citizen of a nation within which the relevant Union exists (or I would accept legal right of permanent abode)
b) comply with iRB rules
c) comply with the Union qualification rules