Actions at the tackle

[Browner]

........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?

 

[Pegleg]

The BC slips and goes to ground and an opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Is it a tackle?

It doesn't matter squat what happens first as long the two requirements ('held' and 'on the ground') occur simultaneously.

The tackle, and all subsequent events, start at that point.

I refer you to the definition of a tackle "A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is
brought to ground."

Note in your example no one is held and brought to ground. Youu describe a Law 14 situation and not a tackle. the two requirements are "held and brought to ground" a little different to "held and on the ground". The tackle begins with "held and brought to ground". Very different.

 

[crossref]

a more precise question is
- red have ball. It's muddy and people who hit the deck slide.

- blue player attempts to make a legal tackle around the legs but falls short, but just manages to knock the ball carrier's left leg into his right leg, bringing him to ground. As the ball carrier hits the ground, the would-be tackler sliding on ground himself, manages to get grip on him.

- Was the ball carrier brought to ground, and held ? Yes
- was the ball carrier held and brought to ground ? No

- was there a tackle ? No

 

[Womble]

Probably true - but this is the UK, and as Womble is 102, it is possible that it was simply his turn ... :wink:.

Also, let's not forget the small furry animal's own words:



Either "Sir" was Womble, in which case he torpedoes the concept of National Panel Infallibility, or else he was acting as AR to a National Panel ref, thereby torpedoing the concept of National Panel infallibility. So with all due respect to Womble as a senior colleague - he gets treated as equally capable of a mistake as the rest of us, compounded by the fact that he plies his trade toward the comedy & entertainment end of the refereeing spectrum.

Dixie, I retired from refereeing last season! My words were spoken as a DOR watching my 1st XV play

At a guess, I would say that Pegleg keeps score as well

 

[Pegleg]

I have to not even scoreboards most weeks.

 

[Womble]

Relax, it's a forum joke xx

 

[Pegleg]

Ah right sorry.

 

[OB..]

........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?

NO

Would you really want to be the referee who had to look out for that?

 

[chbg]

a more precise question is
- red have ball. It's muddy and people who hit the deck slide.

- blue player attempts to make a legal tackle around the legs but falls short, but just manages to knock the ball carrier's left leg into his right leg, bringing him to ground. As the ball carrier hits the ground, the would-be tackler sliding on ground himself, manages to get grip on him.

- Was the ball carrier brought to ground, and held ? Yes
- was the ball carrier held and brought to ground ? No

- was there a tackle ? No

I would put more emphasis on the words "brought to ground". Knocking the BC's left leg into his right is not "bringing the BC to ground", it is legally tripping him. 'Bringing to ground' is maintaining a continuous hold such that the BC cannot keep on his feet and, at a minimum his knees, ideally more of his body land on the ground. Only when the 'bringing to ground' is complete, should the tackler/tackler assist release. Cue discussions as to when the 'bringing to ground' is complete. You need to get to a consistent position when 'you know it when you see it' as there are many, many variations of tackles.

 

[Ian_Cook]

........ once the jackler lost contact with the ball, his privileges expired.

I like the idea that.... if he's skilful enough to meet the prior 'qualification criteria and is then dislodged off the ball ( momentarily) but through strength/skill survives the clear out and can still steal possession ( whilst remaining on his feet) , then such brilliance should win possession.

Maybe this is just my backrow bias towards 'possession winners' surfacing ... shrug

anyone subscribe to that wish?

NO

Would you really want to be the referee who had to look out for that?

 

[OB..]

Knocking the BC's left leg into his right is not "bringing the BC to ground", it is legally tripping him.

Of course it is bringing him to ground! Although it is known as a "tap tackle", it is not technically a tackle since the player is not held.

 

[menace]

compounded by the fact that he plies his trade toward the comedy & entertainment end of the refereeing spectrum.

I like that bit Dixie!:biggrin:

But otherwise good to see so many lambast their top end refs.:clap: :sarc::sarc::sarc:

 

[The Fat]

Well regardless of how he wants to word it, after me spending the last few years discussing refereeing issues on this site, I would just about bet me left nut that in practice, Womble referees the tackle phase correctly.

 

[ChrisR]

I refer you to the definition of a tackle "A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is
brought to ground."

Note in your example no one is held and brought to ground. Youu describe a Law 14 situation and not a tackle. the two requirements are "held and brought to ground" a little different to "held and on the ground". The tackle begins with "held and brought to ground". Very different.

I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.

 

[Womble]

Well regardless of how he wants to word it, after me spending the last few years discussing refereeing issues on this site, I would just about bet me left nut that in practice, Womble referees the tackle phase correctly.

Best on the circuit at the tackle ( coaches words not mine epper & if I could I would bet my right nut on it ! xx

 

[Steve70]

Of course it is bringing him to ground! Although it is known as a "tap tackle", it is not technically a tackle since the player is not held.

So blue BC running along gets caught by red player, both go to ground, and as they fall, red player lets go/loses grip. The fall separately. My interpretation would be that he was held, and brought to ground, so shout tackle, and although he's not held now, he still has to release and get up before playing the ball?

That was my next question before I'd realised 3 more pages had been added... (that normal?)

 

[Pegleg]

I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.

Sorry I can't understand your view at all. A law 14 scenario is NOT a tackle so you referee it under Law 14 and not Law 15. Things should not get messy if you apply law 14 properly. Arriving players ( for that is what all players except the player who went to ground are) do not have to "let him up" but they are required to play the ball and not the man. In Your scenario if the opponent plays the man and not the ball it is a simple penalty against him.

There is no gate. Why? Because there is no tackle.

 

[Pegleg]

So blue BC running along gets caught by red player, both go to ground, and as they fall, red player lets go/loses grip. The fall separately. My interpretation would be that he was held, and brought to ground, so shout tackle, and although he's not held now, he still has to release and get up before playing the ball?

That was my next question before I'd realised 3 more pages had been added... (that normal?)

No there was no tackle. The Ball carrier can simply get up with the ball.

 

[Steve70]

But he was held (not talking about tap tackle now), and brought to ground, but let go on way down - that not a tackle?

 

[Pegleg]

"Held AND brought to ground" so no it is no tackle for me.