Actions at the tackle

[Browner]

Consider the following in relation to your answer to scenario 1.

15.5 The Tackled Player
(e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So, you're saying that as there was no attempt to " play the ball" , then no PK, am I understanding your thrust?

 

[RobLev]

Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Well, one thing we do know is that in no case can it lead to a lineout/QTI.

 

[RobLev]

1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.

In scenario 3: surely Red, since he hasn't got up or passed the ball, has released the ball, so no touch; if he still has the ball when he reaches touch, it's PK Blue (Law 14.1(a))?

 

[The Fat]

So, you're saying that as there was no attempt to " play the ball" , then no PK, am I understanding your thrust?

I'm just throwing things out there for discussion.

Would we allow a player (who stays on his feet) to bring the ball carrier to ground, release for a split second, then grab the tackled player by the jersey and start dragging him along the ground whilst the tackled player is attempting to place/push/pass the ball?

Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?

If a player, who is on his feet in opposition to the tackled player, makes no attempt to play the ball, should he be rewarded?

 

[crossref]

I'm just throwing things out there for discussion.

Would we allow a player (who stays on his feet) to bring the ball carrier to ground, release for a split second, then grab the tackled player by the jersey and start dragging him along the ground whilst the tackled player is attempting to place/push/pass the ball?

Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?

If a player, who is on his feet in opposition to the tackled player, makes no attempt to play the ball, should he be rewarded?

those are new scenarios - what would you give in the first ones?

 

[menace]

Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

1) this could be tricky, obviously we'd be expecting blue to play at the ball (and expect red to release it) but if he started to drag him instead then I may be tempted to PK blue under 15.7
"(b) No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it.
Sanction: Penalty kick"

Dragging the red player around prevents him from doing that?

Blues action wouldn't look right.

2) PK blue for not releasing
3) play on. Not tackled.

 

[The Fat]

those are new scenarios - what would you give in the first ones?

Not new scenarios, just questions that may need to be asked when considering decisions to the 3 scenarios put forward.

 

[Phil E]

So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?

Yes, because there is no tackle, so no gate. We are still in open play.

 

[crossref]

1) this could be tricky, obviously we'd be expecting blue to play at the ball (and expect red to release it) but if he started to drag him instead then I may be tempted to PK blue under 15.7
"(b) No player may prevent the tackled player from releasing the ball and getting up or moving away from it.
Sanction: Penalty kick"

Dragging the red player around prevents him from doing that?

Blues action wouldn't look right.

2) PK blue for not releasing
3) play on. Not tackled.

i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

 

[The Fat]

i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

How far would you allow one player to drag another? 1m, 2m, 10m?

I can see why menace seems to be at odds with himself between 1 & 3.
In 1, he is treating it as a tackle and therefore applying 15.7 whilst in the 3 there is no tackle so Law 15 wouldn't apply

 

[menace]

I disagree.

Scenario 1 was a tackle, so law 15 applies
Scenario 3 was not a tackle so neither law 14 or 15 applies.

Ps. I'm not saying I am right with scenario 1, just saying I would be tempted and what law I'd apply.

 

[The Fat]

Would it make a difference to your decisions for each scenario if the blue player dragged the red player into touch by grasping him by the collar?

 

[Pegleg]

I tend to agree with menace post tackle you cont prevent the tackled player from exercising his options other than by playing the ball. However, I believe that, certainly at the elite end of the game, it would be play on.

 

[Browner]

Would it make a difference to your decisions for each scenario if the blue player dragged the red player into touch by grasping him by the collar?

For me matey there are two styles of collar drag ...... Neither particularly impressive, but I'll try and explain how i differentiate my line

In adults...& representative juniors

A) a top of the shoulder/collar drag that takes the player in a straight line drag alligned with his spine-line ( ie the collar does not pull against/choke or squeeze the neck.
I wouldn't penalise but I would tell the perpetrator to be very very carefully.

B) Any collar pull that drags the players neck in a different direction. The kind of collar jerk/yank/bend that could damage the neck.
PK minimum and admonishment, or YC/RC depending on severity.

In juniors below representative
PK as a minimum. For all deterrent reasoning.

My rationale is Neck contact or above , is the Law benchmark, & applies here also.IMO.

 

[OB..]

Why do we require the tackler/tackle assist to be the first player to release at a tackle situation?

It's a convention that make sthe game flow better.

It is sometimes also essential: in a ball-and-all takcle, the BC cannot release until the tackler has done so.

 

[Ian_Cook]

i think your answers between 1 and 3 are inconsistent - either he can drag him 1m into touch or he can't.

No they aren't

1 is a tackle, so dragging the player is a breach of 15.7 (a) and (b) - PK against Blue

3 is not a tackle, it is Law 14. The player on his feet is NOT obliged to let the player on the ground do anything - play on.

I disagree.

Scenario 1 was a tackle, so law 15 applies
Scenario 3 was not a tackle so neither law 14 or 15 applies.

Ps. I'm not saying I am right with scenario 1, just saying I would be tempted and what law I'd apply.

Actually, Scenario 3 IS a Law 14 situation. Law 14 doesn't just apply when a player goes to ground to gather a loose ball.

[LAWS]LAW 14 DEFINITIONS

...

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.[/LAWS]

This can be because the ball carrier has been ankle tapped and fallen to ground, or has slipped or tripped over his own feet. Anyhow that a Ball Carrier in General Play ends up on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled is a Law 14 situation.

So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?

Yes. The "gate" only exists in the tackle. In Law 14, there is no gate.

 

[The Fat]

Ian,
How do I get more than one quote from several posts into my reply.
You've done it 3 times in your last post.
Signed,
Techno Failure

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian,
How do I get more than one quote from several posts into my reply.
You've done it 3 times in your last post.
Signed,
Techno Failure

Click on the multi-quote icon for every post you want to quote in your post.

Its this one

at the bottom right of each post next to the "Reply with Quote" button.

When you have clicked on it, it will look like this

and it is a toggle, so clicking on it again will remove the tick.

Now click on Reply with Quote on any of the marked posts and it will open a reply box with all the marked quotes, one after the other.

Cut paste and edit as desired

NOTE: Depending on your browser, after you have posted, you may have to go and uncheck them all, as for some reason, on some browsers, it doesn't clear them.

 

[The Fat]

cheers Ian

 

[menace]

No they aren't

1 is a tackle, so dragging the player is a breach of 15.7 (a) and (b) - PK against Blue

3 is not a tackle, it is Law 14. The player on his feet is NOT obliged to let the player on the ground do anything - play on.



Actually, Scenario 3 IS a Law 14 situation. Law 14 doesn't just apply when a player goes to ground to gather a loose ball.

[LAWS]LAW 14 DEFINITIONS

...

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.[/LAWS]

This can be because the ball carrier has been ankle tapped and fallen to ground, or has slipped or tripped over his own feet. Anyhow that a Ball Carrier in General Play ends up on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled is a Law 14 situation.



Yes. The "gate" only exists in the tackle. In Law 14, there is no gate.

Quite right Ian re scenario 3 is related to law 14 and not 15. I worded my response wrong (too late at night and not concentrating fully). I knew what I meant, I just didn't say it! My point as you picked up was that the 2 scenarios were very different in law.