Actions at the tackle

Ian_Cook


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"Held AND brought to ground" so no it is no tackle for me.

Yep, the tackler has to be holding the ball carrier, and still holding him when the ball carrier goes to ground (i.a.w. 15.3)
 

The Fat


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But he was held (not talking about tap tackle now), and brought to ground, but let go on way down - that not a tackle?

Must have hold of him when they hit the deck to be a tackle.
 

ChrisR

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Sorry I can't understand your view at all. A law 14 scenario is NOT a tackle so you referee it under Law 14 and not Law 15. Things should not get messy if you apply law 14 properly. Arriving players ( for that is what all players except the player who went to ground are) do not have to "let him up" but they are required to play the ball and not the man. In Your scenario if the opponent plays the man and not the ball it is a simple penalty against him.

There is no gate. Why? Because there is no tackle.

Law reference please concerning bold text. Certainly not covered in Law 14.
 

Ian_Cook


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I recognize the difference. The scenario of a BC going to ground with the ball and then being held by an opponent may start as a Law 14 situation but 14 doesn't cover this situation. If the BC is held on the ground he can't exercise his option of getting up and must make a play with the ball.

Yes it does

[LAWS]DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes
to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has
not been tackled.
[/LAWS]

This is what happens with an ankle tap. The ball carrier has been grounded without a tackle being made. Once that has happened and another player arrives... Bang! Law 14 applies.

Lets be clear about the options available to grounded ball carrier

from 14.1 (a)

(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball (this option expires when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)
• Pass the ball (this option expires when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)
• Release the ball. (this option becomes mandatory when another player, on his feet, grabs the ball)


A law 14 situation cannot become a tackle so long as the ball carrier does not get to his feet with the ball, and he cannot do that if an opponent on his feet latches onto the ball.

The arriving player cannot fall down on or near the player in such a way that the ball cannot be released - 14.1 (c)

The arriving player, however, does not have to let the prone player get to his feet. He is within his right to straddle the prone player to go for the ball.


Simple enough but how do you manage arriving players? Are they required to approach thru the gate from their side of the ball? If you don't call it a tackle then things can get very messy.

As pegleg says, its not a tackle, so there is no gate, so players can arrive from any direction.
 

OB..


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Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.
 

crossref


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Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.

good one.
I would deem it legal if it happened in my game.
 

menace


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Many years ago I was told by my RDO that in a Law 14 situation you can play the man. The actual situation was that a player fell onthe ball near touch, abd an opponent dragged him into touch (still holdingthe ball). This was deemed to be legal (though he added the comment that it would have been more sensible to go for the ball).

Of course this advice may now be out of date.

good one.
I would deem it legal if it happened in my game.

Why crossref? With law reference.
 

crossref


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Why crossref? With law reference.

well, I'd put it the other way around, I don't see a Law that would prevent it, and I think it's a customary part of the game.


(Aside - this topic provides a great opportunity to dig this old clip up again ..
 
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ChrisR

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Ball carrier goes to ground and arriving opponent grasps him as he is on the ground. Opponent is not preventing BC from making a play with the ball but he is not letting him up.

If this is not a tackle then there is no law that requires opponent to release the BC. And nothing to prevent him from dragging BC into touch.
 

menace


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Don't get me wrong as I agree with you crossref! I'm just seeing if you had a law reference to help.

For mine
1) it's not a tackle so rule out law 15 (doesn't have to release)
2) nothing in law 14 prevents it, and
3) law 7.1 says "Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball."
 

crossref


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Don't get me wrong as I agree with you crossref! I'm just seeing if you had a law reference to help.

For mine
1) it's not a tackle so rule out law 15 (doesn't have to release)
2) nothing in law 14 prevents it, and
3) law 7.1 says "Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball."

I agree with that, but also sometimes there isn't a Law and you rely on custom. Dragging a player into touch is customary, but if someone started dragging a player around in the middle of the field, just for the fun of it, you'd probably blow your whistle, as it would seem like a probable flashpoint.
 

ChrisR

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How do you referee this:

Pick & go BC charges into first defender and goes to ground. Defender doesn't grasp the BC and the BC willingly goes to ground.

BC is not held and BC is "brought" to ground only by gravity. Do you referee it as a tackle?
 

Phil E


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How do you referee this:

Pick & go BC charges into first defender and goes to ground. Defender doesn't grasp the BC and the BC willingly goes to ground.

BC is not held and BC is "brought" to ground only by gravity. Do you referee it as a tackle?


No.

It's not a tackle.
He hasn't been held by anyone.
Its a law 14 situation.
 

The Fat


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I agree with that, but also sometimes there isn't a Law and you rely on custom. Dragging a player into touch is customary, but if someone started dragging a player around in the middle of the field, just for the fun of it, you'd probably blow your whistle, as it would seem like a probable flashpoint.


Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.

Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?


Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.

Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?
 

Pegleg

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Scenario 2 it a penalty for not releasing. That one is simple.

Scenarios 1 & 3 are probably technical penalties in law. BUT at Showbiz level they are play ons.
 

crossref


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Scenario 1:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.
Blue 8 releases red 14 (tackled player) but then grabs red 14 again and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Scenario 2:
Red 14 (BC) is brought to ground by blue 8 (defender) who stays on his feet 1m from touch.
Blue 8 doesn't release red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

Scenario 3:
Red 14 (BC) loses his footing and goes to ground just before he nears blue 8 (defender) 1m from touch.
Blue 8 grabs red 14 and drags him the 1m into touch. Decision?

1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.
 
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The Fat


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1 - PK blue - red not releasing/placing/passing the ball after a tackle. (I am asuming Red is still holding it)
2 - PK Red - its a tackle so blue must release
3 - Play on. - ie in touch blue ball - and play close attention blue likely will grab the ball to look for a QTI, watch to make sure red releases it.

Consider the following in relation to your answer to scenario 1.

15.5 The Tackled Player
(e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
 
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ChrisR

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No.

It's not a tackle.
He hasn't been held by anyone.
Its a law 14 situation.

So defenders (who were onside prior to this event) can come to, and play, the ball from any direction?
 

crossref


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here's the whole Law - what's your opinion on Scenario 1 , Fat ?

[LAWS]15.5 The tackled player
(a)
A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick123

(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e)
If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]
 
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