[Law] Pre match briefings

[crossref]

Simon, I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind not giving one to the whole team - I'd not heard that before. Who are you talking to if not the whole team?

for me it's front-row (inc replacements), scrum-half and fly-half (plus the captain if he's not one of them)

I agree with Simon on the whole-team thing, my observation is that whole team briefings are often long-winded and self important briefings - of course that doesn't have to be the case, and I am sure it's not with you - - it's just a correlation.

 

[DocY]

for me it's front-row (inc replacements), scrum-half and fly-half (plus the captain if he's not one of them)

That's why I don't cover the front row or 9 - I just have a few words at the first scrum (though I used to talk to them just after I'd finished with everyone else). I want to keep the whole team talk to things that will affect everyone.

I agree with Simon on the whole-team thing, my observation is that whole team briefings are often long-winded and self important briefings - of course that doesn't have to be the case, and I am sure it's not with you - - it's just a correlation.

I hope your faith isn't mis-placed I know what you mean though. I've seen a couple where the referee liked being the centre of attention a bit too much. They didn't go on to have good games.

 

[crossref]

That's why I don't cover the front row or 9 - I just have a few words at the first scrum .

we've been instructed to cover C-B-S with the front row including replacement front row, so you can't wait to the first scrum.

 

[Phil E]

That's why I don't cover the front row or 9 - I just have a few words at the first scrum (though I used to talk to them just after I'd finished with everyone else). I want to keep the whole team talk to things that will affect everyone.

When did you do your referees course?
You will have been told that covering the engagement procedure with the front rows is mandatory.

 

[DocY]

When did you do your referees course?
You will have been told that covering the engagement procedure with the front rows is mandatory.

About four years ago now. We did a bit about managing the engage, but in a scrum setting - next to nothing about what to say in the PMB (as far as I can remember). I think it is a good idea, though - to get the replacements involved.

 

[Drift]

"Alright lads hooker to the left of the mark, props long bind. Maintain the gap on bind, square and stable on set, push when the ball comes in. Questions?"
Captain, all talk through you, happy to chat at downtime but if they are going quickly we are playing on. See you out there."

 

[Phil E]

About four years ago now. We did a bit about managing the engage, but in a scrum setting - next to nothing about what to say in the PMB (as far as I can remember). I think it is a good idea, though - to get the replacements involved.

If you did your course 4 years ago I can guarantee at some point you will have been told that briefing the front rows is mandatory. They may or may not have gone through a pre-match briefing as a whole, but they will have covered the FR. This is a mandatory thing that the instructor has to cover. Same as checking boots.

These are from the RFU trainers notes for ELRA circa 2012:

Scrum

• Start with some feedback on front row briefing
• Small groups of 3 or 4. Simple 1 on 1 scrum with a referee (and an observer). Rotate round. Trainer to monitor the groups.
• Stress safety

This is the RFU powerpoint slide from the same ELRA:

Health & Safety - Outcomes
Delegates will:-

be aware of the equipment which the referee needs to bring to a match
be aware of the Safety-Enjoyment-Laws principle
know the pre-match checks which the referee must conduct
manage a scrum engagement – Adult & U19 Body copy

 

[Drift]

Try to keep mine short, can do it in under a minute. Always just get everyone in, since end with studs. usually make a point to be the one talking into the sun.

TACKLE/RUCK
1. "I don't expect you to read my mind" .. will call for release if on the ball illegally (off feet, side entry, not releasing etc)
2. "if I'm talking at every ruck I'll soon just go straight to my whistle" .. but will warn you first if you're pushing it.
3. "when the ball is off the ground the ball is out, hands on is not out"
4. "if in doubt, just ask me, if I shout play on the ball is out"

MAUL
1. "I call every maul, if I don't shout maul it isn't one"
2. "I will shout tackle-only if I think there is doubt and to let you know to get off the ball when it goes to ground"

LINEOUT
1. "I mark the defending side, if its your throw-in you set the gap."
2. "Fly-half?, I will look at you to set the 10m look for my thumbs up."
3. "I will hold my arm up until the lineout is over"

SCRUM
1. "Look for square and stable, ball in when you are still"
2. "Looking for an air gap, ear to ear, on bind"
3. "FR players talk to me, if you are not comfortable just say, we will reset"

GENERAL
1. "Its a league/cup/important game, I respect that and want this to be a great game, I'm happy to field questions when the ball is dead, but lets keep it through captain if we can and recognise that at PK/FK situations its not the time."
2. "Any questions?" (someone always asks a Q that was just explained e.g. when is the ball out)
3. Lets check the studs.
4. "HAVE A GREAT GAME GUYS, WILL LET YOU KNOW WHEN ITS 5MINS TO KO."

Why in the world do you tell them all of that??

 

[DocY]

If you did your course 4 years ago I can guarantee at some point you will have been told that briefing the front rows is mandatory.

I expect it's my memory (or understanding) that's failing, rather than the instructor. No issue adding it back in to my PMB (though only addressing the FRs and letting everyone else go, I think).

 

[Phil E]

I expect it's my memory (or understanding) that's failing, rather than the instructor. No issue adding it back in to my PMB (though only addressing the FRs and letting everyone else go, I think).

Perfectly acceptable. :smile:

 

[OB..]

I agree with Simon on the whole-team thing, my observation is that whole team briefings are often long-winded and self important briefings - of course that doesn't have to be the case, and I am sure it's not with you - - it's just a correlation.

Doing it badly is obviously to be avoided, but I don't understand the need to make it a rule NOT to talk to the whole team. I have seen it done very effectively.

There are occasions when you can't avoid it - eg pouring with rain and the team naturally want the briefing done in the dressing room.

 

[SimonSmith]

Maybe if PMBs are a rarity there, it's more because they have one at all?

Simon, I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind not giving one to the whole team - I'd not heard that before. Who are you talking to if not the whole team?

A number of reasons.

I think - and player/coach feedback tells me - that referees who do it fall into broadly two camps: preachy and self important, or unsure of refereeing and trying to exert as much control as they can from the get go. This is probably a subset of the first group.

I see no benefit from it. What am I going to tell them that will make a difference or tell them something they don't already know? The longer you talk, the more difficult it is to a) stop it being "I" centered and/or b) back yourself into a corner.

To answer your question OB, I think things have moved on. PMBs have been mandatory for a while. It may the level I referee at (usually D1 College or high D2) but the players I interact with are usually very well informed and understand everything I'm going to tell them. Even when I go to the 'depths' of D3 Men, the players know what I would cover in a PMB. Those who don't, the newbies, won't be able to do anything differently with what I tell them.

I'd be interested to hear Marauder's viewpoint, because some of the feedback I'm referencing has come from his team - and their opponents, whose coaches I know well. "Does he ALWAYS gone on like that? I've heard shorter sermons"

 

[crossref]

Doing it badly is obviously to be avoided, but I don't understand the need to make it a rule NOT to talk to the whole team. I have seen it done very effectively.

There are occasions when you can't avoid it - eg pouring with rain and the team naturally want the briefing done in the dressing room.

indeed.
and just this season one game I asked for front row + SH, as normal, and the captain surpised me by saying : can the whole team listen?
of course they could.

 

[DocY]

Thanks Simon,

I largely agree, but I do think they can be useful to highlight potential differences in interpretation. Of course 'potential' has the potential to be abused so I like to restrict it to feedback I've had - you blow for several identical penalties in a game and you'll usually have to offer an explanation (particularly if there are a few confused faces or questions after the game). If the same thing comes up more than once I think it's worth highlighting what you're looking for before the game.

 

[Pegleg]

Just because you speak to all does not mean it needs to be long winded. I'd guess if it is it is because that they type of speaker the ref is. I speak to all and it takes under a minute.

 

[liversedge]

Liversedge, if a team is throwing into a lineout in their own half do you really mark just the defending side?

I tend to mark both, but I referee juniors and girls and it is easier to have a mark than not when the players are less experienced.

I make a mark for the defending side to line up against, usually find the defending prop joins me as I do it.
The attacking side set a gap off them.

I thought it was a pretty common protocol.

Mark

 

[liversedge]

Why in the world do you tell them all of that??

Setting expectations - what to expect of me, especially at the breakdown.
I guess you could just say nothing at all, after all, they all know the laws, right?

Mark

 

[Pegleg]

It is fairly common - I use it. But I guess you mean the non throwing side not the defending side.

 

[Phil E]

I make a mark for the defending side to line up against, usually find the defending prop joins me as I do it.
The attacking side set a gap off them.

I thought it was a pretty common protocol.

Mark

Everyone I know does it that way.

 

[crossref]

Everyone I know does it that way.

I do it that way, but I also see refs who mark the centre point, and refs who mark both lines