[Law] Pre match briefings

[crossref]

Fair enough, are you arguing that no briefing is required at all ?

Mark

I reckon I would be happy to do away with PMB completely

 

[liversedge]

I reckon I would be happy to do away with PMB completely

I tend to agree. If you don't think its helpful to set expectations about the ref then there is no reason to do it. The FR briefing is pointless, since you talk at the scrum when problems arise. There is no safety reason to say straight and stable etc.

Mark

 

[crossref]

Don't get me wrong, I think the PMB has benefits, and since it is mandatory to have one for front row I try and capture those benefits. But overall is it worth it? I am not sure

If it was optional then presumably over time some refs would keep it, and others would drop it. I feel I would likely drop

 

[OB..]

Pre match process.

Introduce myself to coach,
Quick chat about conditions [optional ice breaker]
"when would you like to do studs etc?"
Check studs
"Front row, scrum half and skipper please"
C-B-S, to FR :"If you have any safety concerns about the conditions, let me know"
To SH - "Don't go into the gap between flanker & No 8. I'll keep the flanker straight."
To Captain: " Are you going in ? [presume yes], I'll give you a knock 5mins before KO. I want you out at 3 mins before Ko"
"Any questions?" to captain only

Done. Never change it, never have any problems.
I was told early on, by a wise old ref, the more you speak, the deeper the hole you dig. Totally agree. Fallen in it many times.

That is probably typical of the majority of PMBs I hear, though some will talk to the whole team after studs with their own version of "Hallo, I'm the ref. Let's have a good game" Done well, with perhaps a little humour it starts to establish a relationship on the right footing.

BTW, 20.3 (g) says the flanker can bind at an angle,but must not widen it.

 

[OB..]

The PMB is the first meeting with the teams and allows the referee to introduce himself . Experienced referees do it efficiently and briefly, keeping the players' attention. Beginners often struggle. One novice was actually reading from notes and, after speaking to the whole team, said "Now I want to get rid of ..." Not the best approach.

Telling them in advance what you are going to do at scrum and lineout enables them to plan for that rather than finding out bit by bit during the game. That used to be particularly true of "When is the ball out of a ruck?" Better to be told than find out by giving away a penalty. These days the usual response is "When it is lifted", so players have generally stopped asking.

 

[Drift]

Fair enough, are you arguing that no briefing is required at all ?

Mark

No not at all, I am just saying that it can be 2 sentences and that's sufficient. You don't need to run through all of the TRM stuff etc. I could probably get good outcomes out of "Hooker left of the mark, long binds, stay off the arms and maintain the gap on bind. Questions? See you out there" compared to something like what you have listed in terms of setting out expectations about every aspect of the game.

Rugby is a pretty simple game, why over complicate things by listing all aspects in your PMB and then run the risk of losing credibility by not following through on something you have said.

 

[Christy]

I tend to agree. If you don't think its helpful to set expectations about the ref then there is no reason to do it. The FR briefing is pointless, since you talk at the scrum when problems arise. There is no safety reason to say straight and stable etc.

I dont agree that front row talks are pointless , since you talk to them at scrum.?
For me the scrum if not handled correctly can be dangerous .
The pack stays safer , if they know ref is not going to let go ,,early pushing ,,look for correct binding ,,most importantly stability .

The purpose of talking before hand , is not to take up talk time during match .
Yes verbally manage at under age grades if needed .
But having a brief before match with front row is vital ,,for me .

There is an expectation from all clubs ,,to have a safe refferee at all games .
Poor can be accepted ,,but not unsafe.

 

[liversedge]

I tend to agree. If you don't think its helpful to set expectations about the ref then there is no reason to do it. The FR briefing is pointless, since you talk at the scrum when problems arise. There is no safety reason to say straight and stable etc.

I dont agree that front row talks are pointless , since you talk to them at scrum.?
For me the scrum if not handled correctly can be dangerous .
The pack stays safer , if they know ref is not going to let go ,,early pushing ,,look for correct binding ,,most importantly stability .

The purpose of talking before hand , is not to take up talk time during match .
Yes verbally manage at under age grades if needed .
But having a brief before match with front row is vital ,,for me .

There is an expectation from all clubs ,,to have a safe refferee at all games .
Poor can be accepted ,,but not unsafe.

If they don't pack down properly I peep on crouch and explain what I don't like.
If they bind on the arm I will probably award a PK (and certainly mention at next scrum).
If they push before the ball I give a FK.
If it collapses due to poor body position I will PK for collapsing (and explain why).

I'm honestly not sure what you'd say that has any value in the adult game.
At junior level telling them to hold at 1.5m or you peep for a reset is the only PMB that is gonna help safety?

Mark

 

[Phil E]

At junior level telling them to hold at 1.5m or you peep for a reset is the only PMB that is gonna help safety?

Mark

It's a Free Kick, not a reset.

 

[Huck2Spit]

The only thing I might say to the entire team is for general safety (rugby is up and coming here in USA so often don't get great pitches and it competes with lots of sports for spaces to play) and I do it while I'm checking their boots. Things like the: field is lined for several Sports we're playing these color lines, there's shrubs just past that dead ball line (or other obsticals near, hopefully not on, the pitch), the try zones are short-- don't run out the back, this or that part of the field is wet/depressed.....
I feel that's useful for all to know. Other than that, if applicable, basic short and sweet PMB-- front rows C-B-S, any questions? #9 I'll give you a signal to put in, any questions? Address any ?'s then
captain when should we do the coin toss?

 

[Wert Twacky]

PMB - God forbid you don't do one and there's an injury to a front row player at the scrum.... #shitabrick

If you don't do one, please start! And if you do, great... keep doing them!

Remember the bigger picture (there is lots of good advice here about why: short, sharp, to the point, cover CBS), but overall it's about creating the all-important first impression (not so easy when you're a novice, but practice and experience means they will develop) and covering CBS.

I have not issue whatsoever in PMB. It's an oppo to meet the FR who can make it a very uncomfortable 80 mins if you approach things the wrong way.

It's a great opportunity to start the all-important man-management early on and cover off SAFETY... it takes less than a minute

 

[liversedge]

It's a Free Kick, not a reset.

I was referring to a legal scrum being reset once its moved beyond 1.5m at junior level, and how we adopt a practice of calling 'hold' to let the dominant side know they should stop pushing.


I looked for evidence in law but couldn't find it this morning, do you have something that states FK?

Mark

 

[crossref]

I looked for evidence in law but couldn't find it this morning, do you have something that states FK?

Mark

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?variation=1

[LAWS]20.9 Scrum - general restrictions
(j) Maximum 1.5 metres push. A team in a scrum must not push the scrum more than 1.5 metres towards their opponents’ goal line.
Sanction: Free Kick

(k) Ball must be released from scrum. A player must not intentionally keep the ball in the scrum once the player’s team has heeled the ball and controls it at the base of the scrum.
Sanction: Free Kick[/LAWS]

 

[Phil E]

I was referring to a legal scrum being reset once its moved beyond 1.5m at junior level

As I said, it shouldn't be reset, it should be a FK if they go beyond 1.5m
Cross ref has kindly provided the law reference.
If you can prevent the need for a FK by calling hold, and they stop as a result, all well and good.

 

[Camquin]

Given it is impossible to judge 1.5m accurately as a ref, I do not expect the front row to know when they reach my guess of the distance, so I would never penalise them without calling hold - but I do expect them to stop promptly when I do call.

 

[liversedge]

As I said, it shouldn't be reset, it should be a FK if they go beyond 1.5m
Cross ref has kindly provided the law reference.
If you can prevent the need for a FK by calling hold, and they stop as a result, all well and good.

I didn't know that applied at U19, so thanks !
I still think its a reset at U13-U18 ?

Mark

 

[crossref]

the WR U19 regs apply to everyone under 19, all ages.

but local unions can vary them as they think fit, and generally the younger you go the more variety there is from union to union.

Here in England the RFU regs (Reg 15 Appendix 2) doesn't make any change to the 1.5m law, so it's as specified by WR.

 

[Phil E]

Given it is impossible to judge 1.5m accurately as a ref, I do not expect the front row to know when they reach my guess of the distance, so I would never penalise them without calling hold - but I do expect them to stop promptly when I do call.

In a scrum situation 3 steps is about 1.5 m

 

[Fatboy_Ginge]

I find a comprehensive PMB is better for me and it goes along the lines of

Tackle - Below the line of the shoulders please. Don't neck roll an opponent at ruck or maul and keep the legs below horizontal.
Ruck - Stay on your feet please. The ball carrier may steady the ball for the scrum half and the scrum half may dig it out, all other players leave it alone and if the BC removes his hand off the ball, leave it alone. Join through the gate please
Maul - DO NOT try and collapse it, I will say stopped when I consider it to have stopped and Use it when I need the ball to come out and be played.
If the ball is unplayable at a ruck or maul I will blow nice and quickly.
Lineouts - Straight down the middle please and a nice clear gap. All players not involved make sure you're back 10. I'll tell you if I'm unhappy with your distance.
Scrums - Front rows, I will use C - B - S and will wait till we're stable before we move on. Engage straight and drive straight please and long binds as well. Scrum half I'll give you a signal when I'm happy for you to put the ball in. Make sure it's in straight as well.
Discipline - Captain you're responsible for your teams discipline, if you're unsure why I've awarded a penalty ask me at an appropriate time. DO NOT complain about the penalty being awarded. DO NOT RETALIATE, I may not see the original incident but I will see the retaliation and penalise accordingly.

Does anyone have any questions?

I do a comprehensive brief as I find it makes my life easier on the pitch.

 

[Pegleg]

Too much for me.