NatWest 6 Nations 2018 Championship - talking points

[L'irlandais]

Forgive for bringing this talking point back up, but it does look like the powers that be, want to brush the affair under the carpet:
Wayne Barnes said «*the referee is only the official once the game kicks off.*»
Pre match meeting agenda shows that the officiating starts long before the whistle. Fair enough the citing officer is probably the official specifically concerned with the violence in the tunnel.

With the RFU now seeking to blame Scotland for the fracas in the tunnel’ perhaps worth remembering that such retaliation is also bringing the game into disrepute. Matchday footage abounds in previous years, interesting that two years ago the teams came off the field after the warmup at different times. So whoever had the bright idea to create this year’s bottleneck in the tunnel, should be reprimanded.

The Championship regulations are pretty clear about it, even if now it doesn’t suit the respective Unions.
[LAWS]Sanctions for such misconduct.
20.10.1
(d) expulsion from the remainder of a Tournament and/or Series of Matches;[/LAWS]

If Owen Farrell has thrown a punch he should sit out the rest of the Championship. Simple.

 

[L'irlandais]

Tunnel CCTV cameras galore. (Let’s be clear, this is from 2013)

Hand held cameras may not have been in the narrow tunnel at the precise moment the scuffle broke out, but surely the CCTV would have been on all day. Pretty good camera angle to see the punch up.

Yet, oddly for this match, there appears to be a dearth of such footage, I find that scarcely believable.

 

[L'irlandais]

Reverse angle (2013 footage)

Showing the protagonists walking away from the scene. ??? Nothing publicly available, quite strange.

 

[L'irlandais]

My bad, they have uploaded a Matchday video. Not half the lenght of the previous one, strange in itself, given it is the first time in a decade they won the Calcutta Cup. However it does show a hand held camera in the door of the tunnel. And shows he was in and around the entrance as the teams came off the pitch after the warmup.

 

[DocY]

Wayne Barnes said «*the referee is only the official once the game kicks off.*»
Pre match meeting agenda shows that the officiating starts long before the whistle.

Even if the laws did say that, if before your next game two opposing players are already punching each other, are you really going to let them start the game?

Or even more extreme - a 30 player pre match brawl and we're probably looking at abandoning the game before it's even begun!

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Just to be a law-geek on that. And to help probationary refs....
Isnt the "scrum from where kicked" option only available if its an offside under 10m law offence ?. And not an option for general "in front of kicker" offside offence ?
Otherwise, yes, any PK or FK may be taken as a scrum instead.

Cheers

Not sure if this has been discussed, but there was a mid-field offside called again OF (#12) for advancing after a kick, assume it was called in by the AR?

However, what happened to the options of scrum where it was kicked from or PK where OF was offside?

The PK was given mid-field about 5m into the Eng half and Scotland without a long range kicker opted to kick to touch, however the clearance kick was on or just inside the Eng 22m between the 5 and 15, a great attacking spot and with a solid Sco scrum and obvious choice, but it was never even discussed?

 

[L'irlandais]

It looks debatable to me which team provoked the bottleneck. Scotland warmed up further away from the tunnel. You can see a couple Scottish players jog off, then the England team walks en-masse off the field, getting to the tunnel before the rest of The Scottish team, who are jogging off after their team mates.

Surely if one or other team sees the opposition leaving the field after the warmup they could have the courtesy to wait a minute before heading for the dressing room.

 

[winchesterref]

Surely if one or other team sees the opposition leaving the field after the warmup they could have the courtesy to wait a minute before heading for the dressing room.

Stand there in freezing temperatures and wind, and cool down, of course.

Or just behave like adults and walk off!

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Just to be a law-geek on that. And to help probationary refs....
Isnt the "scrum from where kicked" option only available if its an offside under 10m law offence ?. And not an option for general "in front of kicker" offside offence ?
Otherwise, yes, any PK or FK may be taken as a scrum instead.

Cheers

2017 Law
11.1(c) Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead,
the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or
move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team
chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the
offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is
formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.

 

[L'irlandais]

Stand there in freezing temperatures and wind, and cool down, of course.

Or just behave like adults and walk off!

As I pointed out, in a previous post, 2 years ago both teams left the pitch at different times to avoid the narrow bottleneck of a tunnel. So it is clearly possible to time the end of your warmup so it doesn’t coincide with the opposition heading down the tunnel. (Not that ducking fifficult, sorry.) This year one or other of the teams has deliberately sought to raise tensions by clashing in the tunnel. This isn’t a thing of nothing. Getting jostled on your way to the dressing room is annoying, however the retaliation is way over the top. Rugby is an aggressive game - however there are clear limits. Throwing punches, even in retaliation oversteps that mark.
Eddie Jones said after the game

We prepare to be intense and aggressive but for some reason we weren't.

Unfortunately, a "win-at-all-costs" philosophy has often led to unethical and aggressive behaviors, impacting negatively and destructively on the development and well being of young athletes and of society at large.

Source: Online sports study paper

See WR Regulation 20 for sanctions of such misconduct.

 

[thepercy]

On the Launchbury incident.

NO's critical error was either that:
a] his preventative words to JL had succeeded in ball release, & he was now happy for play to continue , ie ..what it looked like to me.

or

b] he was actually playing advantage without verbalising or signalling the same - which would be an unusual drop of his normal clear communication standards

or

c] that despite a] & b] he considered that the interception opportunity was C&O'y caused by the slowness of the ball release. - which would require him to have factored in a memory recall of defence organisation pre & post 'the alleged slowing' - which I doubt he considered.

There would be no issue for meIF he'd indicated advantage was being played, but as he didn't then i'm bemused & unsure why he'd pluck that decision, after so long.


ps.... this doesn't excuse a bludgeoningly undynamic England performance or detract from a spirited skilfull and energetic Scottish one, but such 7point moments can IMO switch momentum & if you can't appreciate that JollyDearChap then you're beyond my help!

or D) The slowing the ball wasn't material until the intercept and loss of possession.

 

[Rich_NL]

Then you're effectively playing advantage. In which case, call it. Slowing the ball isn't a local matter like standing offside, which is penalisable if the player interferes with play.

 

[winchesterref]

Then you're effectively playing advantage. In which case, call it. Slowing the ball isn't a local matter like standing offside, which is penalisable if the player interferes with play.

How do you think they keep their penalty count so low? Wait and see. No issue with that approach really, but he didn't do it consistently throughout the match.

 

[VM75]

or D) The slowing the ball wasn't material until the intercept and loss of possession.

isn't that c] ?

 

[VM75]

Then you're effectively playing advantage. In which case, call it.

Agree.

 

[VM75]

How do you think they keep their penalty count so low? Wait and see. No issue with that approach really, but he didn't do it consistently throughout the match.

Are you suggesting that playing advantage without an Advantage Signal or verbalising the same is good practice for a referee at any level , or just his ?

 

[L'irlandais]

Additional footage of the pre-match incident emerged on Monday that showed Farrell chasing after Wilson, grabbing the Glasgow Warriors back-row by the shoulder in order to confront him while other Scottish players attempted to restrain the England centre.

It’s believed that Farrell shoved Wilson before being pulled apart by a mixture of England and Scotland players, but the provocation behind the incident remains a mystery after both teams refused to speak about it immediately after the match.

RFU insist he was provoked.

Looks to me like he was being bolshie elbowing his way thru’ the crowded tunnel.

 

[crossref]

that's no more than an ordinary Monday morning on the Waterloo and City Line !
surely there is more to it than that? otherwise what a fuss about nothing.

 

[L'irlandais]

If there was really nothing to it they’d have released the official footage and put things to bed early doors.
He is not trying to catch up with the number 8. He has simply attempted to shove past the guy and not been allowed to be so rude.
Whether he has then taken exception to being put in his place, we won’t know, until somebody leaks the other camera angles and or CCTV

The other long range footage makes more sense now. Online version.
Farrell says he was elbowed before lashing out. Looks like he was the one doing all the initial jostling.
If he has connected with a punch, that’d explain the reluctance to talk about it.

 

[winchesterref]

Looks to me like he was being bolshie elbowing his way thru’ the crowded tunnel.

That does surprise me