A Maul Brought To Ground Safely And Ball Carrier Not Releasing The Ball?

[Kempy]

Too right Didds.

It is a bit of a tightrope sometimes as a coach, player and ref at the same time. if something is going wrong, how far do you push your point with the ref, I don't like gobby players but if something is just plain wrong what do you do....? Say nothing (easier said than done in the heat of battle)? Wait till your in the bar but by then its all over and nothing can change the result?

 

[OB..]

Too right Didds.

It is a bit of a tightrope sometimes as a coach, player and ref at the same time. if something is going wrong, how far do you push your point with the ref, I don't like gobby players but if something is just plain wrong what do you do....? Say nothing (easier said than done in the heat of battle)? Wait till your in the bar but by then its all over and nothing can change the result?

There is no one -size-fits-all approach.Asking the referee for an explanation in the hope that it will trigger him to recognise his error might work. I saw a ref who forgot to offer the option when the attackers had kicked the ball dead through in-goal. As they jogged back to the awarded drop out, the captain asked "Sir, do you think we could have the scrum option, please?", which satisfactorily jogged the referee's memory.

However if he has the law wrong, you are not going to change his mind during the game. It is nonetheless worth talking it over in the bar afterwards. (It is, of course, always possible that you are wrong.) If you persuade him to at least check with other refs, you may have benefitted others and can hope to benefit yourself if others do the same.

In many cases it will depend on what the referee actually saw, which may well differ from what you saw.

 

[TheBFG]

going on from this post but without going to far from the OP :wink:

I'm sure there was a rulling a little while back about a player in the maul trying to get to ground? You see the situation where a player has been held, a maul forms and the ball carrier being taken along with the maul and tries to get to ground but is almost being dragged along, I was trying to explain this to a club ref, but can't find the rulling, any help out there?

 

[Davet]

Not sure of any ruling - but the opposition are quite entitled to hold the BC up in a maul and stop him getting to ground. If he does get to ground with the ball then the ball must be available to be played "immediately" - if not, then unsuccessful end and scrum against the side who took it in (generally his).

 

[damo]

going on from this post but without going to far from the OP :wink:

I'm sure there was a rulling a little while back about a player in the maul trying to get to ground? You see the situation where a player has been held, a maul forms and the ball carrier being taken along with the maul and tries to get to ground but is almost being dragged along, I was trying to explain this to a club ref, but can't find the rulling, any help out there?

There was this one a while back which deals with the original Q of the OP.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&clarlaw=17&clarification=83

 

[TheBFG]

so i guess while he's being "dragged" along it's a judgment call as to if "he's off his feet" and if you say he is, as with the OP it's always going to be a scrum as there are no requirements for him to release?

 

[L'irlandais]

Clarification 2 2011 from ARU, touches on this thread's topic. (Damo posted before I did.)

BFG,
Are you think of this "Innovative Ireland change the game with implementation of the Choke tackle..." ?
Source : © Copyright of Telegraph Media Group Limited 2013

 

[crossref]

Everyone has a good old laugh about it, except the ref who tells me that a player on the ground must play the ball or release. (I shut up and get on with game, hope he has consulted his law book since then)epper:

he will have consulted his law book and found Law 14

[LAWS]
Definitions
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.
The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.

A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.

14.1 Players on the ground
(a)
A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
•Get up with the ball
•Pass the ball
•Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

there is nothing in this Law that provides and excpetion for players on the floor as a result of a collapsed maul.

it's not entirely obvious that the referee is wrong.

if he consulted his Law book I am sure he concluded that he was right.

 

[Dixie]

he will have consulted his law book and found Law 14...

it's not entirely obvious that the referee is wrong.

if he consulted his Law book I am sure he concluded that he was right.

Yes, well...

Law 14 is part of a section dealing with -During the match -- In the Field of Play. This section has the following subsections:

Law 13 - kick-off and restart kicks
Law 14 - ball on the ground - no tackle
Law 15 - tackle
Law 16 - ruck
Law 17 - maul
Law 18 - mark

I think most reasonable people would accept that within the section, each subsection deals with its own scope and they don't overlap. So it would be wholly wrong to apply law 14 within the context of a ruck or maul.

 

[Davet]

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.

A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

Would be the most relevant bits.

However, I would suggest the default option would be blow up "unplayable" and scrum, unless circumstances warranted a Penalty... allowing for previous infractions, temper of the game, and specific circumstances - which could allow the ref the choice of scrum or PK as an appropriate tool.

 

[Dan B]

There was this one a while back which deals with the original Q of the OP.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&clarlaw=17&clarification=83

Am more confused by this than before :chin:

There is a further variable to be taken into account when the ball goes to ground at a collapsed maul and there are players from both sides on their feet bound over the ball so that Law 16 – Ruck becomes applicable.

That reads like it is possible for Maul to turn into Ruck... I had previously been clear that didn't happen... Help?

 

[ChrisR]

Where does it say that a maul can't become a ruck, or a ruck can't become a maul?

Case 1. Maul forms, as the maul slows the team in possession force the ball down to ground. Just the ball, no player going to ground. We now have a ruck.

Case 2. At a tackle a defender gets hands on the ball and is then engaged by opponent. We have a ruck. Jackler picks up ball and teammate binds with him. We have a maul.

 

[OB..]

Where does it say that a maul can't become a ruck, or a ruck can't become a maul?

Case 1. Maul forms, as the maul slows the team in possession force the ball down to ground. Just the ball, no player going to ground. We now have a ruck.

Case 2. At a tackle a defender gets hands on the ball and is then engaged by opponent. We have a ruck. Jackler picks up ball and teammate binds with him. We have a maul.

This comes from the early 1990s. In 1992 the IRB introduced a turnover law for both rucks and mauls. In 1994 they rescinded it for rucks. Players immediately started shouting "going to ground" in order to protect possession. It was quickly clarified that going to ground did not turn a maul into a ruck. Putting the ball on the ground while staying on your feet was the only way to do that.

Now the situation is getting confused again and is in desperate need of proper clarification, covering ALL the tricky points.

 

[TheBFG]

Now the situation is getting confused again and is in desperate need of proper clarification, covering ALL the tricky points.

I'm glad it's not just me then :wink:

 

[Dixie]

Am more confused by this than before :chin:


That reads like it is possible for Maul to turn into Ruck... I had previously been clear that didn't happen... Help?

Case 1. Maul forms, as the maul slows the team in possession force the ball down to ground. Just the ball, no player going to ground. We now have a ruck.

The conclusion is accurate, but Marauder has missed a few important stages in arriving at that conclusion. If we follow it through, we see first the application of Law 17.5, second bullet point, meaning that the maul has ended successfully:

[LAWS]17.5 SUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL
A maul ends successfully when :
• the ball or a player with the ball leaves the maul
• the ball is on the ground
• the ball is on or over the goal line.[/LAWS]

So as soon as the ref concludes that we are no longer mauling, he needs to decide what mode of play we are now in. In doing so, he must look at Law 16.1 to see whether a ruck has formed, more or less instantaneously:

[LAWS](b) How can a ruck form. Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.[/LAWS]

So in my view the maul has not become a ruck, but rather the maul has ended, as a result of which a ruck is taking place. A fine distinction, but an important one to get clear in your mind.

Case 2. At a tackle a defender gets hands on the ball and is then engaged by opponent. We have a ruck. Jackler picks up ball and teammate binds with him. We have a maul.

That is a vastly more controversial statement! The jackler is legally allowed to handle the ball in a ruck:

[LAWS]16.4(b) Players must not handle the ball in a ruck except after a tackle if they are on their feet and have their hands on the ball before the ruck is formed.Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

There is nothing in ruck law to say that the ball may not be off the ground in a ruck. Before the very recent (2011?) amendment to 16.4, there was no legal way in which it could happen. Now that the jackler is legally entitled to handle the ball, and in so doing will almost inevitably lift the ball if the tackled player complies with his obligations, we have an uncertain situation. I look to the iRB's Clarification 3/2007 to find the conceptual approach to resolve that situation:

a) a ruck existed at one point.
b) that ruck must persist until it ends, either successfully or unsuccessfully
c) 16.6 tells us that a ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or is on or over the goal line. This has not happened.
d) 16.7 tells us that a ruck ends unsuccessfully when the ball becomes unplayable. This has not happened
e) consequently, the ruck persists, even though the ball is off the ground and being handled by the jackler

Unfortunately, anyone else from either team getting their mitts on the ball is then handling in the ruck - which is perhaps a rather difficult sell. Marauder's technically incorrect approach at least has the benefit of avoiding this difficulty, and is otherwise indistinguishable from a ruck - so it is to be recommended, though technically incorrect. I suggest that Law 16.6 could be improved by adding that a ruck can end successfully if the ball is legally lifted from the ground during the ruck.

 

[Davet]

Before the jackler came in then it was impossible for a ruck to turn into a maul - for that to happen someone must have been handling in the ruck.

Since we have jacklers then it is now possible.

A maul has always been able to become a ruck - if the ball gets to ground while players stay on their feet then the maul becomes a ruck.

 

[Dan B]

Thank you gentlemen. i am no longer confused!

... at least not on this matter :clap:

 

[Kempy]

So for the benefit of simplicity would it be fair to say that:

1) If the maul collapses and ball not immediately available = scrum.
2) if at the time of the collapse the ball is available (but off the ground), player doesn't have to release so unless the opposition rip it immediately, this is likely to result in a bit of a tussle for the ball and shouts of "he's holding on sir!" = unsuccessful end, scrum.
3) if at the time of the collapse the ball is available and on the ground, ruck laws apply and if the ball carrier doesn't release likely to = PK.

So it's not as simple as "maul can't become a ruck"?

 

[Dixie]

For me, ball on the ground only achieves a "successful end to the maul" if there are no hands on it. Otherwise, imagine this scenario: ball in the middle of a group of fat vets going nowhere. Before you can blow it up, the whole thing falls flat. You whistle. As thye all get up, you realise that the guy at the bottom has landed on the ball - i.e. the ball was on the ground under 16 bodies. How do you restart?

a) ball on the ground - successful end of the maul (Law 17.5). So no turnover scrum - look for team moving forward
b) Maul collapses and ball unplayable: unsuccessful end to maul (Law 17.6). So turnover scrum

Impasse - adopt the approach that ball on ground applies only when it is not being contested with hands when on the ground.

 

[damo]

For me, ball on the ground only achieves a "successful end to the maul" if there are no hands on it. Otherwise, imagine this scenario: ball in the middle of a group of fat vets going nowhere. Before you can blow it up, the whole thing falls flat. You whistle. As thye all get up, you realise that the guy at the bottom has landed on the ball - i.e. the ball was on the ground under 16 bodies. How do you restart?

a) ball on the ground - successful end of the maul (Law 17.5). So no turnover scrum - look for team moving forward
b) Maul collapses and ball unplayable: unsuccessful end to maul (Law 17.6). So turnover scrum

Impasse - adopt the approach that ball on ground applies only when it is not being contested with hands when on the ground.

b) obviously. Would anyone disagree?

The maul only ends successfully if the ball comes out.