A Maul Brought To Ground Safely And Ball Carrier Not Releasing The Ball?

[jdeagro]

Just wanted to double check other people's input on this. Recently I received an email from my local referee society as a reminder about mauls that are legally brought to ground. I never pondered on this before, but apparently when a maul is brought to ground legally, "there is no obligation for any players to release the ball or roll away. " This seems like other laws would contradict this. What are your thoughts?

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

If a maul goes to ground and it was collapsed illegally, the attacking team needs to be able to play the ball immediately. If it cannot or does not, scrum to defending team. Remember that tackle law does not apply, so there is no obligation to roll away.

 

[Browner]

If a maul goes to ground and it was collapsed illegally, the attacking team needs to be able to play the ball immediately. If it cannot or does not, scrum to defending team. Remember that tackle law does not apply, so there is no obligation to roll away.

Presume you mean't legally? ....ie If it's illegally collapsed then its a PK.

 

[damo]

Just wanted to double check other people's input on this. Recently I received an email from my local referee society as a reminder about mauls that are legally brought to ground. I never pondered on this before, but apparently when a maul is brought to ground legally, "there is no obligation for any players to release the ball or roll away. " This seems like other laws would contradict this. What are your thoughts?

Perhaps rather than telling you the answer we could try the Socratic method. Which law in particular do you think would contradict this instruction?

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

Presume you mean't legally? ....ie If it's illegally collapsed then its a PK.

DERP

I did mean legally.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Agree that a maul is not tackle, so there is no requirement for;

- The ball carrier to release the ball

- Other players to release the ball carrier

- Any player to get up or roll away

- Any player to get off the ball carrier

 

[FlipFlop]

I suppose what was meant - if a maul collapses without any fault (i.e. not illegally). (Not legal to collapse!)

And yes - no need for anyone to release or roll away. Turnover ball. Collapsed maul is NOT a ruck (despite what many players think)

 

[L'irlandais]

I agree turnover ball.

Law 17.6 Unsuccessful end to a maul
[laws](b) A maul ends unsuccessfully if the ball becomes unplayable or collapses (not as a result of foul play) and a scrum is ordered.

(c) Scrum following maul. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession when the maul began.
If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped throws in the ball.
If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available (5 second rule).[/laws]
So in answer to the OP although the Tackle obligations don't apply, the contest for the ball is over, at the same time as the maul goes to ground. You need to blow up quickly, before someone gets hurts, by a late drive.

 

[crossref]

if a maul collapses legally then normally either the ball pops out or you blow your whistle.

if you don't blow your whistle that I agree with the OP - you leave the players in a sort of no-man's land, it's no longer a maul, it wasn't a tackle, it's not a ruck.

do you have to release, rollaway, come in through the gate, be behind the back foot ? well, no
but are you allowed to play the ball on the ground ? well, no, rugby is a game for players on their feet.

This murky gray area is one of the reasons we blow the whistle.

 

[Blackberry]

i
do you have to release, rollaway, come in through the gate, be behind the back foot ? well, no
but are you allowed to play the ball on the ground ? well, no, rugby is a game for players on their feet.

This murky gray area is one of the reasons we blow the whistle.

That last line is to me excellent advice, and I would pass that on to any new referee. A legal collapse with no immediate ball leads to a no mans land of laws, any ref should feel free and vindicated to blow up.

 

[Dixie]

The OP seems surprised by the reminder his Society has put out, but it is entirely consistent with all laws in my view. If the maul collapses, it has thereby ended unsuccessfully - turnover scrum, no need to see what happens even immediately agfter that. Blow WHILE it is going down if you can to prevent injury (law 17.6b). If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground but the maul does not collapse, then if the ball is not immediately available to be played [which to my mind means a) it must be readily visible and clear of bodies; and b) it has no hands on it that are not entirely happy to release the ball] the referee must consider that the maul has ended unsuccessfully and award a turnover scrum (law 17.6g).

 

[SimonSmith]

That reminder wasn't from the Society, but from the Referee Office at USA Rugby.

 

[pwhaling]

That reminder wasn't from the Society, but from the Referee Office at USA Rugby.

Anyone know how to get on this email list? I never get the top secret emails.

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

And the High Performance Referee Manager for USA Rugby just sent this out:

There still seems to be some confusing regarding the MAUL. Please share this. Thank you!

When a maul goes to ground and is not deemed to be collapsed intentionally:
-- There is no obligation for any players to release the ball or roll away.
-- If the ball is available, play should continue. Availability would constitute that the referee can see the ball and the team in possession are in the process of recycling the ball.
-- If the ball is not available, a scrum is awarded to the team that did not have possession of the ball at the commencement of the maul.

 

[Phil E]

Anyone know how to get on this email list? I never get the top secret emails.

Pwhaling, meet crossref...........:biggrin:

 

[Browner]

And the High Performance Referee Manager for USA Rugby just sent this out:

There still seems to be some confusing regarding the MAUL. Please share this. Thank you!

When a maul goes to ground and is not deemed to be collapsed intentionally:
-- There is no obligation for any players to release the ball or roll away. Unless Cian Healy is unilaterally deciding [wrongly] that you must , with one of his size 11's raised ! ! ! ! ! !
-- If the ball is available, play should continue. Availability would constitute that the referee can see the ball and the team in possession are in the process of recycling the ball.
-- If the ball is not available, a scrum is awarded to the team that did not have possession of the ball at the commencement of the maul. Unless 17.6[h] applies

:smile:

 

[SimonSmith]

And the High Performance Referee Manager for USA Rugby just sent this out:

There still seems to be some confusing regarding the MAUL. Please share this. Thank you!

When a maul goes to ground and is not deemed to be collapsed intentionally:
-- There is no obligation for any players to release the ball or roll away.
-- If the ball is available, play should continue. Availability would constitute that the referee can see the ball and the team in possession are in the process of recycling the ball.
-- If the ball is not available, a scrum is awarded to the team that did not have possession of the ball at the commencement of the maul.

That note came out yesterday, and different Societies have cascaded the information differently.

I got it from the local Zone Manager, not the TU Chair. (side note: TUs will be disappearing soon is my prediction)

 

[jdeagro]

I agree turnover ball.

Law 17.6 Unsuccessful end to a maul
[laws](b) A maul ends unsuccessfully if the ball becomes unplayable or collapses (not as a result of foul play) and a scrum is ordered.

(c) Scrum following maul. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession when the maul began.
If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped throws in the ball.
If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available (5 second rule).[/laws]

So in answer to the OP although the Tackle obligations don't apply, the contest for the ball is over, at the same time as the maul goes to ground. You need to blow up quickly, before someone gets hurts, by a late drive.

My confusion wasn't on the logic of my original question but rather what I thought it was suggesting, that things such as the ball carrier being allowed to play the ball on the ground, etc. But with these additional laws (^mentioned above) it makes sense to me now.

I have a follow up question now though. Assuming a ball carrier goes to ground from a maul and the ball is immediately available to be played, can the ball carrier get back up from the ground (now behind the maul) without releasing the ball and start running with it again? (Given a tackle never occurred and therefor the ball carrier was never held to ground.)

 

[Kempy]

This is a common misconception amongst players and some refs.

This exact situation happened a couple of weeks ago. Maul collapsed as they sometimes do through no fault of either side. The opposition (who were much better than us) got hands in the ball and the carrier held on like a limpet. Ref blows for penalty for holding on.

At the next stoppage I ask our young captain to ask/tell the ref that a collapse maul is not a ruck therefore, unsuccessful end to maul = scrum to team not in possession. He approaches ref, has forgotten what I had said and asks the the ref very politely if his old prop could negotiate on his behalf as he doesn't understand the laws!!!! Everyone has a good old laugh about it, except the ref who tells me that a player on the ground must play the ball or release. (I shut up and get on with game, hope he has consulted his law book since then)epper:

 

[didds]

kempy - EVERYBODY knows props know the laws better than most refs ;-)

didds