advantage and freely taken kick

[crossref]

a while ago I was reffing a game

- red knock on and blue gather ball, I call advantage
- blue quikcly make two or three passes and - with no red full back in place - they hoof the ball way up-field for a footrace to the try-line

I call advantage over, and join in the exciting sprint upfield..

it was a very long kick and it bounces, bounces, and with the benefit of a tail wind it ended up dribbling into the short in-goal and flops over DBL. So now it's a red scrum back where it was kicked. It didn't end well for blue!

- did I call advantage-over too quickly? Should I call it on the kick, or wait to see how the kick ends up?
- having called it adv over, stick with it? or would anyone go back for knock on?


this example is a really to illustrate a general question : is it the action of freely kicking that means adv over, or is it the outcome of the kick that determines it ?

 

[didds]

My gut feeling is that maybe you called too early - have blue actually acheived a tactical or territorial advantage ? Clearly not.

But a referee will be along shortly to give a proper answer!

didds

 

[Phil E]

No you were spot on, as long as the didn't kick under pressure as a desperate act.

They were given an opportunity to take advantage, and they took it by kicking to gain ground. Advantage over.

The fact that they screwed up the kick is not your problem.

 

[didds]

so to clarify - if they had kicked under no pressure outside their 22, the ball had passed the gain line but half a nano second later went directly into touch, it would be advantage over and a lineout to red with no actual gain in ground at all and the tactical loss of ball control?

didds

 

[didds]

No you were spot on, as long as the didn't kick under pressure as a desperate act.

They were given an opportunity to take advantage, and they took it by kicking to gain ground. Advantage over.

The fact that they screwed up the kick is not your problem.

8.2 When advantage does not arise

The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough. If the non-offending team does not gain an advantage, the referee blows the whistle and brings play back to the place of infringement.


What advantage has Blue received from their kick?

didds

 

[Phil E]

8.2 When advantage does not arise

The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough. If the non-offending team does not gain an advantage, the referee blows the whistle and brings play back to the place of infringement.


What advantage has Blue received from their kick?

didds

This is from a knock on scrum advantage.

They passed into space and cleared their lines. That was the advantage. More or less the same as if they had taken the scrum.

What happens after that is immaterial to the advantage (which is over).

 

[didds]

But they didn't clear their lines at any time in any meaningful o realistic sense. They have never passed the gain line. They have received no tactical benefit.

See my #4 - so that would be a red throw in line with the kick which is actually a gain in ground for red from where red knocked on?
Safety - Enjoyment (nee Equity) - Law?

Amazing. If that is indeed what the laws say then so be it. It however "looks" wrong!

So now we are back to scrum halves deliberately infringing rather than possibly losing the ball - what a positive move ;-)

didds


didds

 

[winchesterref]

I'd probably be calling advantage over as soon as they've moved it freely a number of passes away as well.

 

[crossref]

I'd probably be calling advantage over as soon as they've moved it freely a number of passes away as well.

but at that point they are some distance behind the gain line...

(although they do have the ball)

they have a massive opportunity to gain advantage, but haven't done so...

but it's an interesting point and yes - it's right at the nub of my question.

 

[Dickie E]

kick under no pressure = advantage over.

 

[Phil E]

But they didn't clear their lines at any time in any meaningful o realistic sense. They have never passed the gain line. They have received no tactical benefit.

They don't need to pass the gain line, they received a tactical advantage....read on....

What would they expect to gain from the scrum for the knock on?
A couple of clean passes into space and then the ability to play the ball as they wish.

That is exactly what they got from the (tactical) advantage.

but at that point they are some distance behind the gain line...

they have a massive opportunity to gain advantage, but haven't done so...

Advantage can be tactical OR territorial.

By passing the ball into space and making a kick that was not under pressure they gained a tactical advantage.
The definition of tactical advantage is:

[LAWS]8.1 (d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.[/LAWS]

As soon as they kicked the ball (possibly before) that is what they got. Advantage over.


NB: for a penalty advantage my answer might be different because they would expect to get more if they didn't take the advantage.

 

[menace]

But they didn't clear their lines at any time in any meaningful o realistic sense. They have never passed the gain line. They have received no tactical benefit.

See my #4 - so that would be a red throw in line with the kick which is actually a gain in ground for red from where red knocked on?
Safety - Enjoyment (nee Equity) - Law?

Amazing. If that is indeed what the laws say then so be it. It however "looks" wrong!

So now we are back to scrum halves deliberately infringing rather than possibly losing the ball - what a positive move ;-)

didds


didds

No but they received a territorial advantage ...ie 'they hoof the ball way up-field for a footrace to the try-line', and a big one at that. Which at the time the ball lands is in itself was a tactical advantage.
I'm with Phil, the fact they were able to pass and play the ball as they wish to get the kick in, which goes well past the gain line, then it's advantage over. For knock on advantage I'd be calling that advantage over.

 

[TheBFG]

I'm with the other refs, clean kick, advantage over!

 

[didds]

I'd probably be calling advantage over as soon as they've moved it freely a number of passes away as well.

So three passes ending with the ball several metres behind the gain line is an advantage? Your name is Glen Jackson and I claim my five pounds.

didds

 

[didds]

No but they received a territorial advantage ...ie 'they hoof the ball way up-field for a footrace to the try-line', and a big one at that. Which at the time the ball lands is in itself was a tactical advantage.

Except there was no territorial advantage by the time it next got played. Otherwise booting the ball 20 metres backwards into touch is advantage over as well? Neither action has actually ended in any territorial advantage and has actually provided red with a territorial gain through their initial error.

Bizarre - I accept that this is seemingly "correct interpretation". I'm merely demonstrating its clear flaws!

didds

 

[didds]

I'm with Phil, the fact they were able to pass and play the ball as they wish to get the kick in, which goes well past the gain line, then it's advantage over.er.

How far is "well past the gain line" ? Generically speaking?

1m?
5m?
25m ?

didds

 

[Phil E]

Except there was no territorial advantage by the time it next got played. Otherwise booting the ball 20 metres backwards into touch is advantage over as well? Neither action has actually ended in any territorial advantage and has actually provided red with a territorial gain through their initial error.

There was a TACTICAL ADVANTAGE. I refer you to my earlier post with the definition of tactical advantage.

 

[didds]

So passing 6 times and the ball ending up 15m behind the gain line is a tactical advantage?

didds

 

[menace]

How far is "well past the gain line" ? Generically speaking?

1m?
5m?
25m ?

didds

I was talking about the OPs example...it's no a precise measure I apply. For me if they get to the gain line for a knock on advantage then it's advantage over. For scrum advantage I pretty much use the slide rule if they took the scrum where would they likely get to at the first tackle after a winning scrum? Ie the gain line. I hope you would agree that as a coach that at a scrum you want your players to reach the gain line? If it is then that's about the territorial point that advantage would be over.

 

[menace]

So passing 6 times and the ball ending up 15m behind the gain line is a tactical advantage?

didds

If it's putting that player into clear space....then possibly, yes.