advantage and freely taken kick

[OB..]

If it's a scrum advantage, you ask yourself what they would expect to get from having the scrum. Basically possession and the opportunity to play the ball without undue pressure. If they choose to kick, they have used their advantage regardless of whether or not the kick was a good one.

If it's a penalty advantage, the expectation is different. Even a good kick to touch might not be considered advantage since it would give away the throw.

 

[didds]

even though "The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough.

??

didds

 

[OB..]

even though "The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough.

??

didds

For a scrum offence, there is a clear and real advantage in being able to play the ball while not under pressure. That is about all the players are entitled to expect. A kick made under no pressure is sufficient advantage. You do not wait to see the outcome before calling advantage over.

 

[Phil E]

And finally didds........

[LAWS]8.1 ADVANTAGE IN PRACTICE
(a) The referee is sole judge of whether or not a team has gained an advantage. The referee
has wide discretion when making decisions.[/LAWS]

game, set and match :biggrin:






Yes I know....this is the rugby equivalent of telling my kids..."because I said so".

 

[didds]

I understand all that.

I'm just not sure a player wouold acceot that becasue they have passed 4 times and are now 10m behind the gain line that they have gained any advantage. Or have hoofed it direct to touch and ditto.

I don't doubt you chaps are correct just it seems a tad useless - the least I could expect from a scrum is my own possession and no worse off territorially. I don;t see why advantage over should provide anything less than that. Hey ho

didds

 

[TheBFG]

So passing 6 times and the ball ending up 15m behind the gain line is a tactical advantage?

didds

Any ref knowing his trade, would have blown for no advantage by this time

 

[beckett50]

a while ago I was reffing a game

- red knock on and blue gather ball, I call advantage
- blue quikcly make two or three passes and - with no red full back in place - they hoof the ball way up-field for a footrace to the try-line

I call advantage over, and join in the exciting sprint upfield..

it was a very long kick and it bounces, bounces, and with the benefit of a tail wind it ended up dribbling into the short in-goal and flops over DBL. So now it's a red scrum back where it was kicked. It didn't end well for blue!

- did I call advantage-over too quickly? Should I call it on the kick, or wait to see how the kick ends up?
- having called it adv over, stick with it? or would anyone go back for knock on?


this example is a really to illustrate a general question : is it the action of freely kicking that means adv over, or is it the outcome of the kick that determines it ?

My reaction to having read this is that your call of "advantage over!" was spot on.

Reason being, blue had clear possession and the ball carrier, seeing that red had no defenders behind, kicked the ball ahead into space. Had he not kicked the ball so hard, or the wind been so strong, or he not been too slow over the ground, then ball would have been regathered and a try scored. Ergo they had both tactical and territorial advantage.

However, that being said, the best part of the advantage Law is that we all interpret and see situations differently.

As a (referee) coach I would have no problem with the approach you took, and upon reflection as a team coach I would understand your decision making process too.

 

[didds]

Any ref knowing his trade, would have blown for no advantage by this time

Step forward Glen Jackson!

http://www.itv.com/hub/rugby-six-nations-2016/2a4295a0002

game clock from 17 seconds onlwards, itvplayer clock from 46:30 or thereabouts. And that's for a PK advantage!



didds

 

[SimonSmith]

See the earlier references to what constitutes tactical advantage.

If you freely execute the kick under no pressure and because you want to, then likely advantage over.
if you execute it really badly by overcooking the kick... that doesn't negate the fact that you had a free play with the ball.

 

[didds]

For a scrum offence, there is a clear and real advantage in being able to play the ball while not under pressure. That is about all the players are entitled to expect. .

Understood - but I wouldn't think that they would expect to actually lose territory... after all it wasn't them that made the initial error.

I do understand all you guys are saying. I'm just intrigued as to how sides can actually lose territory because of advantage being over. That's all.

didds

 

[didds]

See the earlier references to what constitutes tactical advantage.

If you freely execute the kick under no pressure and because you want to, then likely advantage over.
if you execute it really badly by overcooking the kick... that doesn't negate the fact that you had a free play with the ball.

I do get it.

Clealrly the best thing players can do with a scrum advntage is if nothing has come of it very quickly, then knock-on themselves to at least make sure you aren;lt adjudged to have have advantage over without having passed the gain line. And now we are back to "how do we take the scrum ref"? as per the other recent thread. I don't like Gregan's solution at all.

didds

 

[Phil E]

I wouldn't do it that way if I was you, because you are judging yourself then when you think the advantage is over or not...and that is the prerogative of the referee.

He may decide that you knocked on deliberately and penalise you for it.

As said in another thread, if you don't want the advantage, just say so.

 

[OB..]

Understood - but I wouldn't think that they would expect to actually lose territory... after all it wasn't them that made the initial error.

An expectation is no guarantee. After all you might also lose territory from a scrum if somebody kicks badly.

 

[didds]

He may decide that you knocked on deliberately and penalise you for it.

Indeed. So why don't we see it penalised when it does happen? (As I mentioned in the other thread I thnk it should be!).

I suppose you could just put it on the floor and leave it there, not played by the non-offending side at all any further. No deliberate knock on but no attempt to play it either.

didds

 

[crossref]

I guess once the referee has called/signalled the advantage you can just stop, and wait, and he'll give it.

 

[Dixie]

I hope you would agree that as a coach that at a scrum you want your players to reach the gain line?

I think that's an unrealistic general expectation, though of course there will be occasions when it happens. But the #10 is required to stand 5m back, and the #7 has him in his sights from the get-go. I very much doubt that any international #10 receiving ball from a scrum would expect to be able to pass on or near the gain line. His backward pass to #12 will take the ball even further away from the gain line, and give the defending backs the opportunity to get ahead of the gain line, making the tackle line almost inevitably well behind the gain line.

I do understand all you guys are saying. I'm just intrigued as to how sides can actually lose territory because of advantage being over. That's all.

But if you stop and think about several such scenarios, you'd accept it without demur. For example: Blue (defending deep in the 22) knock on. Red gather, pass to their drop goal specialist standing in just the right place, and his effort under minimal pressure goes 2cm wide and then over the DBL. Who's surprised that the restart is a 22 drop-out, not a scrum 5 where the knock-on took place?

For the record, Phil E has not said anything in this thread I disagree with. For a guy with his head in the clouds, he talks a lot of sense.

 

[crossref]

But if you stop and think about several such scenarios, you'd accept it without demur. For example: Blue (defending deep in the 22) knock on. Red gather, pass to their drop goal specialist standing in just the right place, and his effort under minimal pressure goes 2cm wide and then over the DBL. Who's surprised that the restart is a 22 drop-out, not a scrum 5 where the knock-on took place?

which is why you don't see many drop goal attempts from a scrum-advantage!

 

[Dickie E]

As alluded to, the smart ref will call "advantage over" as soon as he sees a reasonable kick taken. If he waits until the ball alights to see what happens he will end up in a pickle.

 

[didds]

I guess once the referee has called/signalled the advantage you can just stop, and wait, and he'll give it.

And collect a humungous tackle maybe while you wait. Hence my suggestion of just putting the ball on the ground.

didds

 

[crossref]

is that the same as a monstering?