advantage and freely taken kick

[crossref]

OK so developing this theme

Blue are attacking just outside the red 22m
Blue knock on just outside the 22m, red 9 picks up the ball (ref calls Advantage)and passes it back to into his own 22, to red 10.
Red 10, under no pressure, but not realising the ball was passed back kicks directly into touch expecting gain in ground.

Was advantage over when he freely kicked it ? so no gain in ground, and blue line lineout where the kick was taken.
Or would you say no advantage, back to the knock on

 

[didds]

From what others have informed me above it is clearly a lineout to blue in line with the red kicker.

I would agree that seems harsh, but its clear to me now that kicking it past the gain line was sufficient to call advantage over. The reg should not wait for the ball to land. (see above).

Didds

 

[Pinky]

For me the last one is not an advantage. I agree that often advantage is called over at a kick, but pen adv often kick to in goal on chance of try, knowing with no score, they will be back for the kick.

 

[talbazar]

OK so developing this theme

Blue are attacking just outside the red 22m
Blue knock on just outside the 22m, red 9 picks up the ball (ref calls Advantage)and passes it back to into his own 22, to red 10.
Red 10, under no pressure, but not realising the ball was passed back kicks directly into touch expecting gain in ground.

Was advantage over when he freely kicked it ? so no gain in ground, and blue line lineout where the kick was taken.
Or would you say no advantage, back to the knock on

To me, advantage over:
We, as referees, are not responsible for how players play.
Same goes for a knock-on just after you called "advantage over" - we all had this one.


To me, there is no one-fit-all rule for applying advantage.
I actually try to see what the non-infringing team would want - example:
1. Blue are getting hammered in scrums and lose 50% of their balls there, I would probably call "advantage over" as soon as they've got a clean ball at the back of a ruck in the same kind of area - or after a few passes.
2. Blue are winning by one point and time is over. Knock on by red and blue pick up the ball. What is the best advantage here?
Well, stop the game and avoid an intercept and a try by Red a second after you called advantage over.

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

 

[The Fat]

To me, advantage over:
We, as referees, are not responsible for how players play.
Same goes for a knock-on just after you called "advantage over" - we all had this one.


To me, there is no one-fit-all rule for applying advantage.
I actually try to see what the non-infringing team would want - example:
1. Blue are getting hammered in scrums and lose 50% of their balls there, I would probably call "advantage over" as soon as they've got a clean ball at the back of a ruck in the same kind of area - or after a few passes.
2. Blue are winning by one point and time is over. Knock on by red and blue pick up the ball. What is the best advantage here?
Well, stop the game and avoid an intercept and a try by Red a second after you called advantage over.

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

I don't agree with how you handle #2.
If blue pick up the ball and start to move laterally or forward to a point where you would normally call advantage over at any other point during the game, do exactly the same here.
If blue pick the ball up and are tackled immediately and are under pressure, then call advantage over. Time is up so instead of awarding the scrum, blow for time. No advantage was forthcoming.
By using your approach by considering (a) the current score, (b) the time on clock and (c) assessing what you believe blue would want, you are effectively controlling the outcome of the game.

 

[Dickie E]

OK so developing this theme

Blue are attacking just outside the red 22m
Blue knock on just outside the 22m, red 9 picks up the ball (ref calls Advantage)and passes it back to into his own 22, to red 10.
Red 10, under no pressure, but not realising the ball was passed back kicks directly into touch expecting gain in ground.

Was advantage over when he freely kicked it ? so no gain in ground, and blue line lineout where the kick was taken.
Or would you say no advantage, back to the knock on

I would call advantage over while the ball is still in its upward trajectory unless the kick is clearly skewed.

 

[didds]

I'd said above about the ball passing the gain line, but would my call of advantage over for the kick still be correct if the kick was sliced, or thecwind was si string that the kick actually went backwards?

Didds

 

[talbazar]

I don't agree with how you handle #2.
If blue pick up the ball and start to move laterally or forward to a point where you would normally call advantage over at any other point during the game, do exactly the same here.
If blue pick the ball up and are tackled immediately and are under pressure, then call advantage over. Time is up so instead of awarding the scrum, blow for time. No advantage was forthcoming.
By using your approach by considering (a) the current score, (b) the time on clock and (c) assessing what you believe blue would want, you are effectively controlling the outcome of the game.

Maybe I wasn't super clear: I just wouldn't play advantage at all in this situation.

And to answer the part I bolded in your post, I would say it's exactly the opposite:
I had a great game so far, both teams have decided that at the end of regular time, Blue would be winning by one point.
So by stopping the game when I can, I avoid having a huge c**k-up 3 minutes into extra time and then deciding the outcome of the game by a huge mistake...

Maybe it's only a matter of point of view. Or maybe I really get something wrong here.
Happy to discuss, but not sure this is the best thread for it :smile:

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[OB..]

I'd said above about the ball passing the gain line, but would my call of advantage over for the kick still be correct if the kick was sliced, or thecwind was si string that the kick actually went backwards?

Didds

If the kicker has the same degree of freedom as he could expect from a scrum, then it is irrelevant if he kicks badly or not. He has already made his choice.

 

[crossref]

there seems to be a widespread agreement that a freely take kick = advantage over, regardless of the outcome of the kick.

that's a useful principle we can apply in many situations

 

[OB..]

there seems to be a widespread agreement that a freely take kick = advantage over, regardless of the outcome of the kick.

that's a useful principle we can apply in many situations

Not when there are other laws applying to the situation.

 

[crossref]

Not when there are other laws applying to the situation.

[LAWS]The Law of advantage takes precedence over most other Laws [/LAWS]

 

[RobLev]

[LAWS]The Law of advantage takes precedence over most other Laws [/LAWS]

[LAWS]The Law of advantage takes precedence over most other Laws[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Which laws do you consider take precedence?
Law 10 foul play is one.

 

[Rushforth]

there seems to be a widespread agreement that a freely take kick = advantage over, regardless of the outcome of the kick.

that's a useful principle we can apply in many situations

As a general principle for scrum advantage, it is a good guideline. For penalty advantage (in particular foul play) in the red zone at a decent level of play, it means two bites at the cherry.

However, a guideline is just that. In my grass roots ladies match today, yellow attacker knocks on around the oppo 5m line, orange defender gathers and passes to another who kicks from around try line back to a yellow player on the 5m.

 

[didds]

Advantage over. See above. Unless orange was under pressure of course?

Didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

If you think that freely kicking the ball under no pressure is advantage over, play this scenario in your mind

1. Attacking player knocks the ball on in-goal.

2. Defending player picks up the ball and passes to a team mate.

3. That player, freely, and under no pressure kicks the ball.

4. You are thinking "advantage over" and you are about to say it, when the ball strikes the upright and glances off into the hands of another attacking player.

5. He strolls over the goal-line and grounds the ball.

Who here is going to have the steel balls required to carry on with their decision; say "advantage over", and award the try.

 

[didds]

But that is what is the protocol. As OB says above its not what happens to the ball its that the kick is made.

Otherwise in the OP it wouldn't be a scrum back for kicking dead

Didds

 

[Rushforth]

Advantage over. See above. Unless orange was under pressure of course?

In case I wasn't clear, orange kicked it directly into the arms of a player less than 5 metres away (and the ball would not have gone another five).

So yes, I clearly interpreted that as being under pressure - and also didn't have any time to call advantage over whatsoever (which means I didn't really have to decide as per the letter of this thread so far).

 

[didds]

Ah... If under pressure then not advantage over, so back to original infringement.

But that's never been in doubt here.

If it had cleared the oppo and gone into touch what would have called?

Didds