Agen vs Toulouse

[Toby Warren]

Not really TW as the original scrum hasn't been completed yet. It the same scrum ie same mark and same side putting in, so play on until the scrum has ended.

A 90 degree wheeled scrum is a "new" scrum - different side putting the ball in.

We clearly have a different view Taff - and yours makes perfect sense - this is why I asked DB (mentioned earlier at meeting) and the answer given was the opposite view to yours. Hence I'm interested in who else supports that view and whether there is a split.

This is also a real issue my club benefited hugely from a ref making the call that you advocate as a fan I was delighted as a ref I wasn't sure had a chat with the ref who made the call we disagreed and agreed to speak to DB and the answer given is above.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Quel surprise a fight breaking out in the Espace Daniel Dubroca!:france::biggrin:

 

[Davet]

OK so DaveT your view is also scrum 90 game over?

That's not what I said.

We were talking about U19 where a deliberate wheel over 45deg is a PK.

If we are talking adult rugby, when a deliberate wheel is allowed, then the Laws refer to a turnover at this "new scrum".

 

[Davet]

I'll cop that one - failure to engage brain properly before hitting the keyboard. Apologies everyone.

'salright.

Makes a nice change.

 

[Taff]

We clearly have a different view Taff - and yours makes perfect sense - this is why I asked DB (mentioned earlier at meeting) and the answer given was the opposite view to yours. Hence I'm interested in who else supports that view and whether there is a split.

Hang on a bit; OB will be along shortly no doubt. :biggrin:

If you do a search on here for it, I'm sure we've kicked this one about before.

 

[TNT88]

Thanks for all the replies.

Next time someone calls a mark in overtime, sets a scrum and then starts wheeling it. I'll be prepared

 

[ckuxmann]

Was there any disciplinary ruling from the end of that out of curiosity.

 

[L'irlandais]

Hi ckuxmann,
Do you mean the Agen game?

Wednesday Disciplinary hearing (28/9/2011) suspended two players (a second-row from Perpignan & a centre back from Biarritz) and the back's coach from USAP has been barred from the touchline/dressing rooms until 8 October for "contesting the officials' decisions".

No mention that either of the Agen staff were disciplined. Perhaps the LNA fined the club, but I don't know for sure. ~shrug~

Here in France when the 80 minutes are up a siren sounds (herad right at the begining of the clip) ; it indicates "last play" to the referee.
A further 3 minutes elapse before the conversion of that winning try was awarded. Does this "siren blast" exist in the UK?
It kinda caused the agro in this clip, since the Agen coaching staff didn't wait for the final whistle. It ain't over til it's over, gents.

 

[Dixie]

'salright.

Makes a nice change.

The cock-up or the apology?

 

[OB..]

A 90 degree wheeled scrum is a "new" scrum - different side putting the ball in. 20.11(b) actually calls it a "new" scrum.

Does a term used in Law 20 necessarily answer a question arising from Law 5? Do they use the same terms?
Law 5.7 (e) says "an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed".

Law 20.11(a) says "[...]the referee must stop play and order another scrum." Every time you reset a scrum are you not "awarding another scrum" ie you have to start the procedure again?
Then Law 20.11(b) follows with "This new scrum ..." which clearly refers back to "another scrum". Does that necessarily mean the awarded scrum has been completed?

We are crawling over the words, which are not clear enough. For me an awarded scrum is completed when the ball comes out legally and is played. After a scrum turnover there has been no opportunity for open play. That seems to be a sensible interpretation. I remember some years ago seeing Chris White allow a scrum turnover after time had expired. I take the Dave Broadwell line.

 

[crossref]

For me an awarded scrum is completed when the ball comes out legally and is played. After a scrum turnover there has been no opportunity for open play. That seems to be a sensible interpretation.

I agree with that, except to note that a scrum may also be ended (completed doesn't seem the right word) by the award of a FK or PK...
.. which in the context of time expired of course means play continues with the PK/FK

 

[Dixie]

Does a term used in Law 20 necessarily answer a question arising from Law 5? Do they use the same terms?

M'learned friend surely refers to the ECJ case of Maria Pupino, demonstrating that there are limits to the basic principle of conforming interpretation, among them being that the outcome of such interpretation cannot be contra legem. All very solid and a respectable method for referees to adopt. I'm sure OB can tour the country to train refs in its use at Society meetings.

 

[OB..]

M'learned friend surely refers to the ECJ case of Maria Pupino, demonstrating that there are limits to the basic principle of conforming interpretation, among them being that the outcome of such interpretation cannot be contra legem. All very solid and a respectable method for referees to adopt.

Very interesting. (I had never heard of the case before.)

 

[Taff]

... For me an awarded scrum is completed when the ball comes out legally and is played. After a scrum turnover there has been no opportunity for open play. That seems to be a sensible interpretation. I remember some years ago seeing Chris White allow a scrum turnover after time had expired. I take the Dave Broadwell line.

That's good enough for me.

From now on, until I get told differently the next time a scrum turns more than 90 degrees and time has expired, we carry on with a turnover scrum.

 

[Account Deleted]

At the scrum the front rows came up so the scrum should have been reset! No issue with the taking the scrum rather than the Penalty kick though.