[Law] Alleged foul play

[Dan Cottrell]

Just finished a university second team game.

After about 5 minutes, the Blue prop complains of biting. I've no evidence that I could see, but I calmed him down. He alerts me to it again about 5 minutes later. Again, same reply.

About 15 minutes into the game there's a scuffle and an alleged gouge by Red on Blue again. It happens away from the play, so again I'm in no position to see it.

I calm the situation down and speak briefly to the captains.

Then at 20 minutes, the Blue 9 remains on the ground after a ruck. I've penalised Blue for going off their feet, but the Blue 9 is clearly distressed. I speak to him and there's a clear mud mark away from his eye and his eye looks red.

Again, there was no way I saw anything because I was on the Red side of the ruck and the incident happened on the other side.

I bring in the Red captain. I tell him that I believe there was potential foul play. I couldn't identify it but the evidence looked clear enough to me to suspect it. I said that I would send him off if I couldn't identify the player involved next time, but switched the penalty.

On reflection, I am not sure I took the correct path here. However the game seemed to calm down in that respect. However, about halfway through the second half, there was another accusation of gouging on a Blue player, but it wasn't very clear to me if anything happened.

It was a very fast game, as you would expect from two strong student teams, so the ball moved quickly away from the breakdown area.

I've not come across this type of situation before, though I've certainly known players to complain about late tackles or perceived foul play. Gouging is different.

If I'm honest with myself, the game was completed without much other incident, the better team won (the Blue team by one score), but I'm really not sure at all if I got the perceived gouging correct.

Thoughts, comments welcome.

 

[OB..]

If you sent the captain off, what law would you cite in your sending-off form?

 

[Dan Cottrell]

If you sent the captain off, what law would you cite in your sending-off form?

No idea. How does one deal with this?

 

[tim White]

Captains and players are responsible for their own discipline.

Tell/warn both captains 'If anyone infringes -and I see, it I'll deal with it, otherwise get on with the game.' and ask them to speak to their teams. Perhaps remind them how long the ban is for eye gouging.

From then on we all play rugby; If anyone infringes -and you see it, deal with it, otherwise get on with the game. Don't let the players referee but by all means listen to them and keep your eyes open.

Some games have more of this than others.

 

[didds]

I sympathise - but please NEVER threaten to send a captain off for the actions of "anyone" or even a _known_ other player.

No law coveres it, and if it got to a tribunal, it would be thrown out - I would hope!

Remember - people end up as captains in amateur rugby for all sorts of reasons, and they do not always share their squad's undying devotion. never underestimate the potential for inter-rival jealousies and you may just have opened the door for a team mate to extract some petty revenge. Let alone an opportunity for the opposition to smear mud on their own face, cry wolf and get the oppo skipper dismissed.

Sorry Dan!

didds

 

[SimonSmith]

You have two options:
To do as others have suggested - read the riot act, and then blow and penalize appropriately whatever you see.

Your other, probably less palatable, option is that if you feel that there has been a sustained pattern of serious foul play that you have been unable to detect and it left you feeling that it would be unsafe to continue (risk of a player being blinded, for example) you can abandon the match and let the appropriate bodies sort it out.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

Thanks all.

Sometimes you are faced with a tough situation and in the heat of the moment you have to decide very quickly what the best course of action is. The coaches from each team were quite vocal as well, so I was definitely the arbiter of sense (!).

In my mind, gouging is the most cowardly act in the game because unless it's on camera, almost impossible to detect by the referee.

So, I got it about half right and will know next time that I can only deal with what I see.

 

[Dixie]

Your other, probably less palatable, option is that if you feel that there has been a sustained pattern of serious foul play that you have been unable to detect and it left you feeling that it would be unsafe to continue (risk of a player being blinded, for example) you can abandon the match and let the appropriate bodies sort it out.

This. You can't give what you can't see, but if you suspect that there is deliberate gouging going on, someone could be blinded. If you are sufficiently concerned to be prepared to send off a player with no evidence of wrongdoing (probably leaving the real perp on the pitch to do it again), you should really be considering abandoning the game - for which there is considerable justification (though perhaps again, the extent to which this can be done in strict rugby law is debatable. Law 6.A.8 requires the ref to blow up when it would be unsafe to continue; and the ref is under no obligation to restart that I can think of).

 

[FatherFlipper]

As an additional question from this, would it be worth reporting what has happened, I'm guessing the society in charge?

I know that the ref hasn't seen anything, but with a number of accusations of gouging, and one of biting, would it be prudent to mention it? Along the lines of "look, I haven't seen it explicitly, but x y and z were accused. I spoke to both captains, and it stopped" (or similar). I know that, as nothing has been penalized, but could the referee pass the information on so another referee is forewarned/forearmed? I know that could be putting undue scrutiny on a team who have not been found guilty of anything (and in all likelihood might have done nothing untoward), but equally, if the following referee is aware of the previous "alleged" incidents, they would be at least prepared for it....

I realise this is shaky ground, but am genuinely interested if this would be an option...?

edit - this post read better in my head. I'm off to get coffee....

 

[OB..]

Always a good idea to keep the society Disciplinary Officer informed of potential problems.

 

[thepercy]

When faced with a similar situation, I have told the captain that I did not see the incident but if they had video they should send it to the DC, but I can't give PK for things I was unsighted to.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

However, I could clearly see a red eye and a finger mark coming away from the eye. The player took no further part in the game.

 

[crossref]

However, I could clearly see a red eye and a finger mark coming away from the eye. The player took no further part in the game.

so you had
- an alleged bite
- an alleged gouge
- a second alleged gouge, and this one with some physical evidence on the face such that you were pretty sure a gouge had taken place , and player left the pitch because of it.
- later, a third allegation of gouging!

that's pretty hard day at the office.

what do people think - at any stage, how close should a ref be to abandoning the game ?

 

[Dan Cottrell]

At the third alleged gouge, it crossed my mind to suggest this. But, there was nothing for at least next 40 minutes.

University rugby is a funny beast. Always feisty I find and the players are reasonable towards the referee.

This was the first time that I've had anything remotely like this.

 

[ChrisR]

Was it a different player each time that reported being gouged? Did the gougee point out a gouger?

As defense tactics have changed and counter-rucking less frequent big pileups happen less often so I'm thinking that the gougee would have a pretty good idea who the gouger was. In fact, unless my arms were pinned, if I got a finger in the eye I'd have a hold on the miscreant and wouldn't be letting go.

This a strange course of events. There's some good advice from prior posters.

 

[Dan Cottrell]

Thanks Marauder. I agree, some great advice. I've got an U15s schoolsboys cup game tomorrow at St Helens, Swansea. It will be fast and furious but there won't be gouging (I'm pretty sure?!).

 

[thepercy]

Was it a different player each time that reported being gouged? Did the gougee point out a gouger?

As defense tactics have changed and counter-rucking less frequent big pileups happen less often so I'm thinking that the gougee would have a pretty good idea who the gouger was. In fact, unless my arms were pinned, if I got a finger in the eye I'd have a hold on the miscreant and wouldn't be letting go.

This a strange course of events. There's some good advice from prior posters.

I'm surprised the alleged foul play victim or at least an unhinged teammate of said alleged victim didn't take justice into his own hands (or fists) on the second or third such occasion.

 

[JSAK]

so you had
- an alleged bite
- an alleged gouge
- a second alleged gouge, and this one with some physical evidence on the face such that you were pretty sure a gouge had taken place , and player left the pitch because of it.
- later, a third allegation of gouging!

that's pretty hard day at the office.

what do people think - at any stage, how close should a ref be to abandoning the game ?

I would be very reluctant to abandon a game due to the behavior of only one team, and in this instance, I think I would abandon the game only as the last resort. While its easy to retrospectively imagine what I’d do in Dan’s circumstance, I think the alleged bite would have drawn a YC warning issued to the captain, the first allegation of gouging would have resulted in a loud RC warning to the captain, and after the second alleged gouge a lecture to the Red pack along the lines of “if I see any foul play in the pack it is going to result in a RC.” If that didn’t turn the trick, I’m not sure what I’d do next…?
A second observation: I am just returning to referring from a very long hiatus, and at this point in my career I would not hesitate to consult my AR’s, who are frequently more experienced than I, on matters “relating to foul play” and the adjudication thereof.

 

[menace]

Welcome to the forum JSAK.

For me biting=RC, no ifs or buts. If they want to act like a horse and bite, then they can go to the stables.

I think most would agree that abandoning is the last resort, but you yourself said that after repeated threats and no sighting but still allegations you wouldn't know what to do? . This is the point that you could lose control of the game as your warnings had apparently fallen on deaf ears....the flash point is high, so abandoning must be a real option. I'd rather not wait for an all in brawl because one team wants to be dicks - cause that means more paper work for me and I have better things to do. :biggrin: (And ARs would be nice but are rarely on games most of us referee)

 

[JSAK]

"If they want to act like a horse and bite, then they can go to the stables." Great line, ...I'm stealing it.

You make a good point, all else failing, abandonment would be preferable to a brawl. But, I sure would hate to end the game because of one or two miscreants. Must say I’m surprised re: AR’s ?