[Line out] Asking for Numbers

Arabcheif

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You're right that they are not obliged to say how many. But on what grounds do you take that as allowing the other side to not match numbers? You can't make up laws to suit yourself. As long and the non throwing-in side has time to reduce numbers you should manage things. Which may mean a warning of ping first time but you can't assume it's full.


If they don't communicate to me, then I'm sole judge of fact. The fact is they might've made an error in their counting. They may have miscommunicated the numbers to their team mates and they might want a full LO but 2 of the forwards haven't heard. So I tell them at the start, if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO. There's nothing in the Laws that prevents my standpoint. If they tell me then yes, I'll ping the non-throwing team if they've had plenty of time to drop numbers. Although, I'm there to facilitate a game of Rugby, not ping every minute offence and turn it into a game of kicking penalties/free kicks for gains in ground etc. So if the throwing team don't tell me, how an I meant to know their intensions. If you establish the ground rules at the start of the game, it's easier to manage and let the game flow.
 

Marc Wakeham


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If they don't communicate to me, then I'm sole judge of fact. The fact is they might've made an error in their counting. They may have miscommunicated the numbers to their team mates and they might want a full LO but 2 of the forwards haven't heard. So I tell them at the start, if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO. There's nothing in the Laws that prevents my standpoint. If they tell me then yes, I'll ping the non-throwing team if they've had plenty of time to drop numbers. Although, I'm there to facilitate a game of Rugby, not ping every minute offence and turn it into a game of kicking penalties/free kicks for gains in ground etc. So if the throwing team don't tell me, how an I meant to know their intensions. If you establish the ground rules at the start of the game, it's easier to manage and let the game flow.


So, if you decide that a punch is only a free kick you are correct? I'll let your assessor comment on that one!

Sole judge of fact does not mean you can make up the laws. Their intentions are irrelevant. Thowing side puts 4 in that is a fact that you can't change. The non throwing side can only be pingged IF they have time to react. That is their job. Your judgement is "did they have time?" . The Laws of the game prevent you making things up you are bound by the laws just as much as the players.
 
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Arabcheif

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So, if you decide that a punch is only a free kick you are correct? I'll let your assessor comment on that one!

Sole judge of fact does not mean you can make up the laws. Their intentions are irrelevant. Thowing side puts 4 in that is a fact that you can't change. The non throwing side can only be pingged IF they have time to react. That is their job. Your judgement is "did they have time?" . The Laws of the game prevent you making things up you are bound by the laws just as much as the players.


What Laws am I making up. Am I meant to guess how many they are supposed to have in the LO, or do I go with what IS in the Laws and with the max numbers?
 

chbg


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What Laws am I making up. Am I meant to guess how many they are supposed to have in the LO, or do I go with what IS in the Laws and with the max numbers?

How would you square a 4-man line-out with "if you don't tell me your LO numbers I'll assume it's a full LO"? You would be the only person on the pitch in step.
 

Marc Wakeham


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If you clained a 4 mand was actually 7 you'd lose all credibility You've also told both sides that yoy are going to treat all line outs as full unless they do your job for you. You've just lost repect from both sides and their coaching staff.

YOu are not meant to guess youare are meant to count numbers. It is part of your job.
 

Flish


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The closest I've come to this is when a team has told me "We always go 5 sir" in which case I'll announce "Assuming 5 unless you tell me otherwise" In earshot of all that need to do, then at least we have an agreed default - if they change then on them to tell me in good time and I'll give oppos time to match.
 

Arabcheif

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The closest I've come to this is when a team has told me "We always go 5 sir" in which case I'll announce "Assuming 5 unless you tell me otherwise" In earshot of all that need to do, then at least we have an agreed default - if they change then on them to tell me in good time and I'll give oppos time to match.

Ah, but now we're making Laws up.

Marc, I'll have told them unless they tell me otherwise, I'll assume a full line. That's the chance to say - like Flish has said - we always do 5 man.... That's them told me, no need to do anything else part from making sure we have both teams with the correct numbers in the line. That's now my job, I know unless they call otherwise, I'm matching 5 players. Also again how am I meant to know it's meant to be a 4 man. What if they've called 5 man in their huddle and 4 step into the LO. Same maybe there's crossed wires, someone in he huddle says - "we'll have a 4 ball," Missheard to 4 man but it's meant to be full. There's no need for teams to keep it secret, just walk over and say "ref, we're having a 5 man LO." That way everyone knows. Throwing team know, I know, non-throwing team know.... everyone knows.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Ah, but now we're making Laws up.

Marc, I'll have told them unless they tell me otherwise, I'll assume a full line. That's the chance to say - like Flish has said - we always do 5 man.... That's them told me, no need to do anything else part from making sure we have both teams with the correct numbers in the line. That's now my job, I know unless they call otherwise, I'm matching 5 players. Also again how am I meant to know it's meant to be a 4 man. What if they've called 5 man in their huddle and 4 step into the LO. Same maybe there's crossed wires, someone in he huddle says - "we'll have a 4 ball," Missheard to 4 man but it's meant to be full. There's no need for teams to keep it secret, just walk over and say "ref, we're having a 5 man LO." That way everyone knows. Throwing team know, I know, non-throwing team know.... everyone knows.

You are required to call numbers (or manage as per the law) That means you have to count. Not assume anything. If you assume you are making it up.

Assessor Question: "Red put 2 men in the line out just on Half time Blue Put 8. Blue won the ball and scored a try Why didn't you FK it?"

You: Red didn't tell me so it was full as far as I'm concerned."

Assessor: "WTF"
 

Flish


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Ah, but now we're making Laws up.

??? No, I'm just removing unnecessary management in the process, I'm not penalising anyone, there's no gotchas here, I'm just confirming what they've told me, and letting the other team know we don't need to keep asking for numbers as we already know - unless they chose to go different.

If they do and don't tell me then on them. I'll just slow it down and give both teams a chance at a fair contest.
 

Arabcheif

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I agree, but one of the other commenters said that doing that is making up Laws. So I was just playing devils advocate. I don't think you are making up any Laws and there's any Gotcha reffing. It seems to be good management to me.
 

Flish


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I agree, but one of the other commenters said that doing that is making up Laws. So I was just playing devils advocate. I don't think you are making up any Laws and there's any Gotcha reffing. It seems to be good management to me.

I think the difference is I'm assuming 5 man because that's what they've told me, whereas you were assuming a full line based on ? so there's a gotcha there.

If they don't tell me their default setup (or don't have one), then I don't assume anything and I will ask each time given the opportunity
 

crossref


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This subject causes so much discussion.
Whereas actually on the pitch I find both teams make the opponents aware , and opponents quickly match and all is good .. and nothing at all is required of me

Happy days
 

OB..


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I have certainly come across the occasional team that will tell the ref "If we say 6 in that really means 5". A sensible ref could reply "I advise you not to lie to everyone in order to obtain a penalty.".
 

didds

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secondary question...

blue throw.

No numbers called etc.

Blue put two in + receiver and throw immediately.

red put 7 in plus hooker in the channel and a receiver.

Red however catch the ball and score.

Seems reasonable that blue took the risk and suffered for their cock up.

But...

red had no time to match numbers, but gained.

nobody is right, and nobody is wrong here. Its also easy to say manage it... but this admittedly chopperesque scenario will happen one day, somewhere, somewhen... becasue whatever as ref one decides, one side will feel aggrieved.
 

crossref


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Blue are in control of this scenario --- the only reason I can think of that they would proceed to throw in, would be to win a FK (which seems rather unlikely as a FK is pretty rubbish).

but if they are trying to win a FK then they know from the laws that the ref won't give them one if they throw quickly


So it sounds like a complete cock up ? One option is to blow the whistle the moment they throw 'hang on this is chaos! let's get a proper lineout set, guys'
 

Flish


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secondary question...

blue throw.

No numbers called etc.

Blue put two in + receiver and throw immediately.

red put 7 in plus hooker in the channel and a receiver.

Red however catch the ball and score.

Seems reasonable that blue took the risk and suffered for their cock up.
.

Blue threw immediately, Red did nothing (in law), play on. You makes your bed you lie in. Up there with the scrum half who tries to go quick when defenders aren't back 10 (but not interfering) and knocks on in his haste. You don't get a do-over
 

Arabcheif

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But they've had the opportunity to tell me any default numbers. Unless you tell me otherwise, we'll default to full man LOs - Ref we actually do 5 man LOs as default - Fine with me then that's what I'll assume going forward. No Gotchas at all. If they don't take the opportunity to tell me, that's not gotcha. Gotcha would be just assuming full LO but not telling them that's what I'm assuming, thus not giving them the chance to communicate that to me.
 

crossref


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in real life - when was the liast time any gave a FK for numbers?

I can't honestly remember, it must have been ages
 

thepercy


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What Laws am I making up. Am I meant to guess how many they are supposed to have in the LO, or do I go with what IS in the Laws and with the max numbers?

I think you're meant to do the counting.

What does "max numbers" mean to you?
 

chbg


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Blue threw immediately, Red did nothing (in law), play on. You makes your bed you lie in. Up there with the scrum half who tries to go quick when defenders aren't back 10 (but not interfering) and knocks on in his haste. You don't get a do-over

Fully agree.
 
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