[Law] Choke 'Tackle'

[chbg]

The ball carrier (BC) is held by one or more opponents, who endeavour to keep the BC on her feet. No member of the BC's team joins in, so there is no maul. After some seconds (not immediately - how long? does it matter?) the wriggling BC manages to get a knee down onto the ground.

How do RRF members referee this? Has there been discussion/direction in your Society?

In discussion with a referee whom I respect, his view is that this is not a Tackle as defined ("a method of holding a ball-carrier and bringing that player to the ground") nor a Tackled Player ("a ball-carrier who is held and taken to ground by a tackler or tacklers"). (Don't be distracted by whether there can be a Tackle without a Tackler ("a player who holds the tackled player and goes to ground") i.e. both have to go to ground!)

I suggest that goes against current convention, that many/most of us would call 'Tackle' or 'Release' as a management tool and expect play to transition into Law 14 (Tackle). But if BC and opponents remained on their feet, i.e. it remains a non-tackle/non-maul, what management calls would you use? And after how long?

Is 14.1 actually refereed as if it states "For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and concurrently gets or is brought to ground by one or more opponents"?

Thanks.

 

[didds]

the convention AIUI is to call tackle in effect as chbg says to get the game moving again... as otherwise we get this stalemate scenario . ultimately its most likely that eventually the defenders will just add weight (=more bodies) to the melee until the BC gets shoved/pulled to ground under sheer weight of numbers ... and in the interests of safety alone its probably sensible to call tackle and move on.

I agree however tat on the face of it its not really something 100% covered by laws.

 

[Phil E]

If the ball carrier gets a knee to the ground it's a tackle. Shout "Tackle, Release".
If he doesn't get a knee to the ground.....play on.

 

[Arabcheif]

14.2 specifically states that ...


[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one knee on the ground or on another player who is on the ground.

[/FONT]Not too sure how one can ref this any other way other than a tackle. Like in a maul scenario if a player got his knee down on his own, this still counts and we'd all peep the whistle if it (the ball) wasn't presented immediately.

So OP - Tackle, release lets go.

 

[Decorily]

Technically I don't believe a ball carrier voluntarily going to ground constitutes a tackle....however I do referee it as a tackle ie release now and get on with it.

 

[smeagol]

Knee goes down, it's a tackle. Players need to have this drilled into their heads, since usually one of two things happens:

1) knee goes down - tackler(s) don't release - PK to attacking team for not releasing
2) knee goes down - tackler(s) release - BC gets up and runs - PK to defending side for holding on

In terms of management, these sequences happen so quickly that preventing them on the spot is extremely difficult, and the best you can do is make it a teachable moment.

 

[Decorily]

Knee goes down, it's a tackle. Players need to have this drilled into their heads, since usually one of two things happens:

1) knee goes down - tackler(s) don't release - PK to attacking team for not releasing
2) knee goes down - tackler(s) release - BC gets up and runs - PK to defending side for holding on

In terms of management, these sequences happen so quickly that preventing them on the spot is extremely difficult, and the best you can do is make it a teachable moment.

Not really difficult to manage at all in my experience.

Calling 'release now' usually gets the required reaction, if not call a second time and add 'he's down ' or whatever is needed and give the second or two that it takes.

 

[thepercy]

Not really difficult to manage at all in my experience.

Calling 'release now' usually gets the required reaction, if not call a second time and add 'he's down ' or whatever is needed and give the second or two that it takes.

Shout "Tackle, release"

 

[crossref]

You have to make clear it's a tackle, because the 4 tackled player also have duties (to release ball etc) . He can't just run off once released

 

[Arabcheif]

Have a question as a player related to this. say I was the tackler (or assist). I've hands on ball, BC gets knee on the ground and immediately releases. Thus leaving me holding the ball on my feet. If I'm quick thinking enough and place the ball down and pick it up. Am I still infringing? Or is the act of placing the ball down enough to stop any potential infringement (dependant on length of time I hold onto the ball).

 

[Decorily]

Have a question as a player related to this. say I was the tackler (or assist). I've hands on ball, BC gets knee on the ground and immediately releases. Thus leaving me holding the ball on my feet. If I'm quick thinking enough and place the ball down and pick it up. Am I still infringing? Or is the act of placing the ball down enough to stop any potential infringement (dependant on length of time I hold onto the ball).

What you're getting at is can a quick thinking ball carrier buy a penalty for tackle assist not releasing....better hope the ref is as quick thinking!!

Also....don't place the ball down forward in your scenario! !

EDIT.... To answer your question, If I , as referee, thought you had gained possession illegally ie without releasing then I wouldn't allow what you describe.

 

[beckett50]

Pause first and see what is happening.

Is the BC trying to get to ground, knowing that they have been wrapped, to make the ball available to their team mates? If this is the case, then when the knee touches the ground call "Tackle! Release".

If there is no attempt to get to ground and BC team mates and opponents bind onto the BC and the 'tackler' then you have a Maul.

TBH if a teammate of the BC bound on after I saw the BC trying to get to ground I would (probably) still call "Tackle" once the knee hit the ground - unless of course the opposition manage to keep the BC up on their feet then it is clearly a maul and will be called as such )

 

[thepercy]

Have a question as a player related to this. say I was the tackler (or assist). I've hands on ball, BC gets knee on the ground and immediately releases. Thus leaving me holding the ball on my feet. If I'm quick thinking enough and place the ball down and pick it up. Am I still infringing? Or is the act of placing the ball down enough to stop any potential infringement (dependant on length of time I hold onto the ball).

For the tackler who stays on their feet who has wrapped the ball up, I think it might be best tactic to help the BC get to ground quickly before support arrives, show clear release, steal ball or earn PK.

 

[SimonSmith]

Let me devil's advocate for a second.

You can argue it doesn't meet criteria for a tackle.
The ball carrier has elected to go to ground, in accordance with 13.1.

13.1 places obligations upon the BC but NOT upon the would-be tacklers.

 

[Decorily]

Let me devil's advocate for a second.

You can argue it doesn't meet criteria for a tackle.
The ball carrier has elected to go to ground, in accordance with 13.1.

13.1 places obligations upon the BC but NOT upon the would-be tacklers.

You don't need to convince me that it doesn't meet the criteria for a tackle....I've been stating that for years!
However as long as WR and convention demand that I referee it as a tackle I'm happy to do so!!!

 

[Phil E]

Let me devil's advocate for a second.

You can argue it doesn't meet criteria for a tackle.
The ball carrier has elected to go to ground, in accordance with 13.1.

13.1 places obligations upon the BC but NOT upon the would-be tacklers.

You are Chopper and I claim my £5 !

 

[Dickie E]

But if BC and opponents remained on their feet, i.e. it remains a non-tackle/non-maul, what management calls would you use? And after how long?

You see this happen occasionally, expecially in 7s. Call "no maul, play on". Once it eventaully becomes unplayable (ie stationery) award scrum to team going forward. What normally happens though is, once you call "no maul, play on" more players join in and maul is created.

 

[Phil E]

You see this happen occasionally, expecially in 7s. Call "no maul, play on". Once it eventaully becomes unplayable (ie stationery) award scrum to team going forward.

If everyone is on their feet (and it's not a maul) how can you call it unplayable...it's open play...you just have to leave them to sort it out for themselves and see what develops. I see no justification for blowing up.

 

[Dickie E]

If everyone is on their feet (and it's not a maul) how can you call it unplayable...it's open play...you just have to leave them to sort it out for themselves and see what develops. I see no justification for blowing up.

if it ain't moving (after 3 mississippi) that's unplayable for me. The sun's gotta go down sooner or later.

But if you've got 3 or 4 Blue players pushing against 1 Red ball carrier it is unlikely to be stationery for long. Then the Red cavalry arrive and we have a maul.

 

[ChrisR]

Let me devil's advocate for a second.

You can argue it doesn't meet criteria for a tackle.
The ball carrier has elected to go to ground, in accordance with 13.1.

13.1 places obligations upon the BC but NOT upon the would-be tacklers.

[LAWS]13.1. Players, who go to ground to gather the ball or who go to ground with the ball, must
immediately:
a. Get up with the ball; or
b. Play (but not kick) the ball; or
c. Release the ball.

14.1. For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or moreopponents.

14.2. Being brought to ground means that the ball-carrier is lying, sitting or has at least one
knee on the ground or on another player who is on the ground.

[/LAWS]

This makes the difference. Although not explicitly stated in 13.1 we may assume that a player going to ground with the ball is not in the grasp of an opponent.

I'd like to see 13 and 14 modified to turn a player who goes to ground (as in 13) and is then grasped by an opponent become a tackle. That would clean up a lot of stuff. ("He has to let him up" rubbish)