Clancy - Namibia v Georgia

[OB..]

Because a PK is not awarded. If the team chooses the scrum option, should the match end, then?

No. The PK is awarded, so the referee allows play to continue. The team can choose to take it as a scrum instead of a kick.

Why do you want to make it end the game?

 

[MrQeu]

Sorry if it's unclear. I don't want the game to end there. But following the letter of the law, it should (AFAIU).

I wanted to point out that the wording of some laws do affect the outcome of other laws because of a general poor wording, being this one case.


The sanction for offside in general play is not a PK. It's either a PK at place A or a scrum at place B, and the non-infringing team chooses which one is the sanction. Whereas the sanction for offiside under the 10m law or loitering is always a PK.

The law regarding the end of the match (or going into half time) states that if the time has expired and options are offered, the match is over. In the case of offside in general play, options are offered.

AFAIU. Glad to be corrected.

 

[didds]

the ref hasn't awarded a scrum. the scrum option for the PK has been taken. ie the scrum=a kick.

didds

 

[MrQeu]

Maybe I'm not able to understand it:

[LAWS]
Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]


A team cannot get the kick at the place the offending team last played the ball

 

[crossref]

MrQeu - you are right, you have highlighted another inconsistency in the Law

The Law says that time expires when referee offers an option BUT we know
- when it is a restart kick and the option is scrum or kick again, it does NOT expire
- but when it is not-straight at lineout and the option is scrum or lineout again time DOES expire
- but when it is offside in front of a kick and the option is PK at place of infringement, or scrum where kick was taken, it does NOT expire

 

[OB..]

I wanted to point out that the wording of some laws do affect the outcome of other laws because of a general poor wording, being this one case.

Surely we all know there are ambiguities and omissions in the laws. Moreover we do not necessariiy enforce the laws literally even when clear eg allowing the scrumhalf to pick the ball out of a ruck.

As I have said before, referees should know the laws and interpret them sensibly.

 

[crossref]

I think this is more than just poor wording - the Law says that when a referee offers options this means the ball is dead, and this means that the game is over.

but there seem to be four scenarios where the referee offers options
- bad restart
- bad dropout,
- bad lineout throw,
- offside in front of a kick

and in three of those four scenarios the game does NOT end, and play continues... The lineout is actually the odd one out

 

[OB..]

I think this is more than just poor wording - the Law says that when a referee offers options this means the ball is dead, and this means that the game is over.

but there seem to be four scenarios where the referee offers options
- bad restart
- bad dropout,
- bad lineout throw,
- offside in front of a kick

and in three of those four scenarios the game does NOT end, and play continues... The lineout is actually the odd one out

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team,[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and a [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]mark, free kick or [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/FONT][/LAWS]The two highlighted sentences potentially conflict. I argue that in order to resolve this conflict it is sensible to regard the "option" as applying only when the referee is required to offer an option not involving a penalty. Then we can take at face value the rule that allows play to continue if a penalty is awarded.

IMHO that makes sense and the alternative doesn't.

 

[The Fat]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team,[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and a [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]mark, free kick or [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/FONT][/LAWS]The two highlighted sentences potentially conflict. I argue that in order to resolve this conflict it is sensible to regard the "option" as applying only when the referee is required to offer an option not involving a penalty. Then we can take at face value the rule that allows play to continue if a penalty is awarded.

IMHO that makes sense and the alternative doesn't.

Backed by the fact that the ball is not dead when a PK is awarded

 

[OB..]

Backed by the fact that the ball is not dead when a PK is awarded

Technically it is because the referee has blown his whistle to stop play. It is a "zombie ball" because a player can take the PK without waiting for the referee's permission, but the same is true of a QTI, and we all agree (i presume) that the ball going into touch ends play - no QTI.

 

[crossref]

[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team,[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]If time expires and a [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]mark, free kick or [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/FONT][/LAWS]The two highlighted sentences potentially conflict. I argue that in order to resolve this conflict it is sensible to regard the "option" as applying only when the referee is required to offer an option not involving a penalty. Then we can take at face value the rule that allows play to continue if a penalty is awarded.

IMHO that makes sense and the alternative doesn't.

even if you disregard the PK options, we have three scenarios where the referee offers options, and two of those don't end the game.
Still the line out is actually the odd one out