Clancy - Namibia v Georgia

[Simon Thomas]

uncontested scrums, and clancy now telling the non-throwing scrum half to stay back at the tunnel and not to go forward with the ball

As many of you on this thread will know I tend to be fairly objective and considered in my match observers comments at Society and Group levels, and rarely comment on an Elite Match Official's performance.

When I saw the binds used in the non-contested scrims and saw & heard his instructions to the defensive scrum half I muttered "f***wit" which was heard by Mrs T in the other room, followed by her comment "is it Clancy reffing again dear ?"

As for the final passage of play, PK advantage, the missed drop kick, a knock on in goal, and then the final whistle - I would be questioning a Society Referee quite hard, and making a Group Referee feel very uncomfortable. At Elite RWC level I have no words capable of expression my thoughts.

 

[didds]

Is it though?

[LAWS]5.7(e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead.[/laws]

[LAWS]19.9(b) Lineout ends. The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves the lineout.
This includes the following:
• When the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked out of the lineout, the lineout ends.
• When the ball or a player carrying the ball moves into the area between the 5-metre line and the touchline, the lineout ends.
• When a lineout player hands the ball to a player who is peeling off, the lineout ends.
• When the ball is thrown beyond the 15-metre line, or when a player takes or puts it beyond that line, the lineout ends.
• When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout ends.
• When the ball becomes unplayable in a lineout, the lineout ends. Play restarts with a scrum.[/LAWS]

So the law requires that if a lineout has not been completed, play must continue until the ball next becomes dead. 19.9b tells us when a lineout ends - with the implication that it is incomplete unless one of these scenarios happens. The lineout in question was incomplete so play must continue - but the ball was dead by virtue of George blowing for not straight.

Not clear at all!

I agree - except that the clarification is very clear in saying

"Situation 2 The referee ends the match". I would suggest that THAT is what is to be followed.

Of course the justification for that provided is totally rubbish as is pointed out!

Another example oif a law clarification being totally rubbish!

didds

 

[crossref]

I agree - except that the clarification is very clear in saying

"Situation 2 The referee ends the match". I would suggest that THAT is what is to be followed.

Of course the justification for that provided is totally rubbish as is pointed out!

Another example oif a law clarification being totally rubbish!

didds

and something they could totally easily have fixed in the 2010 Law Book, be re-writing the Law slightly to provide clearly for this situation. It's so annoying that they don't do it.

 

[crossref]

As for the final passage of play, PK advantage, the missed drop kick, a knock on in goal, and then the final whistle - I would be questioning a Society Referee quite hard, and making a Group Referee feel very uncomfortable. At Elite RWC level I have no words capable of expression my thoughts.

here is that last passage -- watch from behind the sofa.

(note right at the start GC holding his arm out for an advantage)

https://youtu.be/Ch--o6oIjyg?t=197

 

[Phil E]

and something they could totally easily have fixed in the 2010 Law Book, be re-writing the Law slightly to provide clearly for this situation. It's so annoying that they don't do it.

But they did.

The clarification states "This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2010".
The clarification was incorporated into the 2010 Law book by the addition of the "when a ball is dead" explanation in 5.7(e) (added part highlighted in red by me). The whole of 5.7(e) was highlighted in green in the 2010 Law book to show it was a change.

2009 Law book
(e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee
allows play to continue.

2010 Law book
(e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an
option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick
at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a
mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

 

[crossref]

hmm, I guess you are right, they did try - but they still leave it ambigous, as it's hard to argue that the awarded line out was 'completed'

and then subsequently they confused matters again by clarifying that after a restart or dropout offence, (like straight out) a situation where you would offer an option, does NOT end the game.

 

[Pegleg]

As many of you on this thread will know I tend to be fairly objective and considered in my match observers comments at Society and Group levels, and rarely comment on an Elite Match Official's performance.

When I saw the binds used in the non-contested scrims and saw & heard his instructions to the defensive scrum half I muttered "f***wit" which was heard by Mrs T in the other room, followed by her comment "is it Clancy reffing again dear ?"

As for the final passage of play, PK advantage, the missed drop kick, a knock on in goal, and then the final whistle - I would be questioning a Society Referee quite hard, and making a Group Referee feel very uncomfortable. At Elite RWC level I have no words capable of expression my thoughts.

A few of us did warn about Clancy. I don't mind saying: "We told you so!" The man is a nightmare.

 

[didds]

and that law book inclusion does not include the definitive answer that was provided to scenario 2, and as such leaves it open to interpretation as to when the lineout is "over".

didds

 

[Phil E]

and that law book inclusion does not include the definitive answer that was provided to scenario 2, and as such leaves it open to interpretation as to when the lineout is "over".

didds

I would have to disagree.

[LAWS]Situation 2
The referee ends the match as there has been an offence that ensures that the ball is dead after the lineout has been completed and therefore the match ends in accordance with Law 5.7 (e).[/LAWS]

The answer says the ball has gone dead after the first lineout, so play ends.

We know the ball is dead because 5.7(e) says so.

[LAWS](e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an
option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick
at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a
mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]

First lineout takes place.
It's not straight.
The referee would have awarded an option (as stated in 5.7(e))
So the ball is dead.
As time has already expired and the ball has since gone dead the half is over.

 

[crossref]

we can go round in circles, but first sentence...

[LAWS](e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an
option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick
at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a
mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]

..says the opposite. No one can meaningfully argue that the lineout was in any sense completed.

So we have a law where the second sentence contradicts the first.

Yes, it's the second sentence which we need to follow - but we only really know that for certain because of the 2009 clarification.

 

[Phil E]

But earlier you said it was all clear?

well, that's clear enough...

[LAWS]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed,
[/LAWS]
Time 'has' expired.
If we read on we find out if the ball is dead or not, so let's park this bit for a second.
[LAWS]the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead.
[/LAWS]
We are about to read on and find out if the ball is dead, and therefore whether we allow play to continue.
[LAWS]The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a

• scrum,
• lineout,
• an option to the non-infringing team,
• drop out
• or after a conversion
• or successful penalty kick at goal

[/LAWS]
So as the lineout was not straight, we had to offer an option. This is on the list so the ball has become dead. So we don't allow play to continue. End of the half

[LAWS]If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed.
[/LAWS]
Not relevant in this case
[LAWS]If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]
Not relevant in this case.


I really don't see any confusion whatsoever.
If you do, I can't do anything about that, but it is crystal clear to me.
Let's not go looking for problems where none exist.

 

[crossref]

I said the clarification was clear - in the sense that it's absolutely clear what the IRB want us to do
[LAWS]"Situation 2 The referee ends the match"
[/LAWS]

I wish the Law was written with the same clarity..

 

[didds]

I would have to disagree.

[LAWS]Situation 2
The referee ends the match as there has been an offence that ensures that the ball is dead after the lineout has been completed and therefore the match ends in accordance with Law 5.7 (e).[/LAWS]

The answer says the ball has gone dead after the first lineout, so play ends.

We know the ball is dead because 5.7(e) says so.

[LAWS](e) If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been
completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes
dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an
option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick
at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a
mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]

First lineout takes place.
It's not straight.
The referee would have awarded an option (as stated in 5.7(e))
So the ball is dead.
As time has already expired and the ball has since gone dead the half is over.

well, i would agree with you Phil - but i get the impression from others here that THEY woulnd;t. So it is not universally clear that the l/o is over and the game is finished.

didds

 

[The Fat]

But earlier you said it was all clear?


[LAWS]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed,
[/LAWS]
Time 'has' expired.
If we read on we find out if the ball is dead or not, so let's park this bit for a second.
[LAWS]the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead.
[/LAWS]
We are about to read on and find out if the ball is dead, and therefore whether we allow play to continue.
[LAWS]The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a

• scrum,
• lineout,
• an option to the non-infringing team,
• drop out
• or after a conversion
• or successful penalty kick at goal

[/LAWS]
So as the lineout was not straight, we had to offer an option. This is on the list so the ball has become dead. So we don't allow play to continue. End of the half

[LAWS]If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed.
[/LAWS]
Not relevant in this case
[LAWS]If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/LAWS]
Not relevant in this case.


I really don't see any confusion whatsoever.
If you do, I can't do anything about that, but it is crystal clear to me.
Let's not go looking for problems where none exist.

All well and good except that we know that we cannot end the half if a 22 DO is kicked directly into touch. If it is kicked directly to touch, options are offered to the non-infringing team and the game continues until the ball next becomes dead.

13.14 Drop-out goes directly into touch

The ball must land in the field of play. If it is kicked directly into touch, the opposing team has three choices:
•To have another drop-out, or
•To have a scrum at the centre of the 22-metre line, and they throw in the ball, or
•To accept the kick. If they accept the kick, the throw-in is on the 22-metre line.

 

[chbg]

An alternative way of looking at it, not yet considered unless I have overlooked it, is that a throw-in that is not straight is an "Incorrect Throw-in" (19.7). It is not actually a Line-out offence. Therefore play has not correctly re-started and the line-out can never be considered to be over. The options in this case are merely further attempts to get the ball back into play.

 

[MrQeu]

Reading the offside law, I've remembered this bit:

[LAWS]
(c)
Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.

Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]


So, should that offside end the match?

 

[OB..]

Reading the offside law, I've remembered this bit:

[LAWS]
(c)
Offside and moving forward. When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player must not move towards opponents who are waiting to play the ball, or move towards the place where the ball lands, until the player has been put onside.

Sanction: When a player is penalised for being offside in general play, the opposing team chooses either a penalty kick at the place of infringement or a scrum at the place where the offending team last played the ball. If it was last played in that team’s in-goal, the scrum is formed 5 metres from the goal line in line with where it was played.[/LAWS]


So, should that offside end the match?

No.

It is not a choice of sanction - just a choice of location.

 

[MrQeu]

I'd say "yes" -based on law, not on the spirit of the game: The non infringing team may choose a PK or a scrum. Therefore they may choose a different sanction. The referee has to offer the options to the non infringing team. It is not a straight PK offense.

I just wanted to point out that the law regarding the match ending is not in line with the some other laws and might be subject to interpretation if taken word by word. As an spectator I would not accept a match ending after an offside, even in the team chose the scrum. But, that was "options" and by the letter of the law, the game should end.

 

[OB..]

I'd say "yes" -based on law, not on the spirit of the game: The non infringing team may choose a PK or a scrum. Therefore they may choose a different sanction. The referee has to offer the options to the non infringing team. It is not a straight PK offense.

I just wanted to point out that the law regarding the match ending is not in line with the some other laws and might be subject to interpretation if taken word by word. As an spectator I would not accept a match ending after an offside, even in the team chose the scrum. But, that was "options" and by the letter of the law, the game should end.

[LAWS]5.7 e [...] [FONT=fs_blakeregular] If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/FONT][/LAWS]That seems pretty explicit to me. Why choose to follow the wording that you agree makes no sense in this context?

 

[MrQeu]

Because a PK is not awarded. If the team chooses the scrum option, should the match end, then?