coaches commenting on referee performance/decisions.

Stu10


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Just watched the full thing on ITV, clearly no ruck, and the Italian player arriving on his feet hasn't got over the ball before he receives the pop-up pass from the tackled player, so no offside. Looks like the To4 got it spot on.

Edit: 14.10 Offside lines are created at a tackle when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball...
Here are a couple of screen shots... I can't see how the Italian can get more over the tackled player... He is adjacent to Wales #2 on the floor who made the tackle, and his toes are practically touching the tackled Italian player on the floor.

(Ignore the leg in the air in the first photo, that it a third Italian player.)

Screenshot_2023-03-14-07-41-45-428_com.google.android.youtube.jpgScreenshot_2023-03-14-07-42-12-916_com.google.android.youtube.jpg
 

belladonna

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he was in that he was in the 'tackle area' which is a circle around the tackle with a radius of 1 metre.
Just out of interest, where does this "tackle area" come from? I can't find a reference for it in either Law 14, or the Definitions. The Definitions say "near is 1m" but that's about it - but there's no reference to "near" in Law 14. Is this something from GMGs, or just something refs are taught along the way?
 

Stu10


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Do you mean 14.9c: Any player who gains possession of the ball... May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their own goal line?

If so, doesn't this only apply to players playing the ball in the tackle? The Italian player wasn't part of the tackle at any point.

I just been thinking around this situation a bit more...

Do we agree the Italian player arrived to contest possession in the tackle? If yes, then he is a player in the tackle (Law 14.4.c.ii).

If the Italian player was not there, would red #10 be allowed to go straight for the ball or must he play the ball from the direction of his own goal line (Law 14.6).

If we consider the Italian player was essentially in a scrum half position, and we accept that red #10 must play the ball from the direction of his own goal line, then it seems absurd to consider it OK for Red #10 to smash the scrum half in the back from the direction of blue's goal line.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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Ironically if Brex hadn't lost the ball forward (and as such scored a try) we wouldn't be talking about any of this. :)

It is a poor decision and no wonder KC is pissed (as indeed are the rest of the Sunshine Band)
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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I am not party to any of the discussions but I know at the level I AR at the DoRs are often at pains to discuss refereeing performance either with the referee on the day or with the NLMOT Manager after the review of the game. They will often clip the video and ask waddabout this? Waddabout this?

Indeed some are so keen they will ask the referee about last week's referee or even save it up for next time they meet you. :LOL:
 

Stu10


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I am not party to any of the discussions but I know at the level I AR at the DoRs are often at pains to discuss refereeing performance either with the referee on the day or with the NLMOT Manager after the review of the game. They will often clip the video and ask waddabout this? Waddabout this?

Indeed some are so keen they will ask the referee about last week's referee or even save it up for next time they meet you. :LOL:
I don't know enough about higher levels to say where a line might be drawn, but a professional TO4 with live video replays should be getting it right 99% of the time IMHO.

I wonder if the extensive use of veo, etc, is resulting in increased scrutiny on referees at grassroots.
 

belladonna

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I just been thinking around this situation a bit more...

Do we agree the Italian player arrived to contest possession in the tackle? If yes, then he is a player in the tackle (Law 14.4.c.ii).

If the Italian player was not there, would red #10 be allowed to go straight for the ball or must he play the ball from the direction of his own goal line (Law 14.6).

If we consider the Italian player was essentially in a scrum half position, and we accept that red #10 must play the ball from the direction of his own goal line, then it seems absurd to consider it OK for Red #10 to smash the scrum half in the back from the direction of blue's goal line.

14.4.c.ii Players in a tackle are: ... Player(s) who arrive to contest possession in the tackle.


I would say he was on his way to compete for the ball in the tackle, but never arrived as he received the pop-pass before he could get there.

If the Italian player hadn't been there, yes red 10 could have gone straight for the ball as no player was on their feet over the ball to create an offside line. (There was an Italian flying horizontally over the tackle, at an altitude of approximately three feet, but I don't think that counts 🤪😁)

I wouldn't characterize the Italian player as being a sort of scrum half, to me it was more continuous open play with one player passing to another.
 

Phil E


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If the Italian player hadn't been there, yes red 10 could have gone straight for the ball as no player was on their feet over the ball to create an offside line.

No he couldn't.

Arriving players are classed as "other players" in law.

8. Other players must :
c. Arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before
playing the ball.


This has nothing to do wth offside lines.
 

belladonna

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No he couldn't.

Arriving players are classed as "other players" in law.

8. Other players must :
c. Arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before
playing the ball.


This has nothing to do wth offside lines.

Doh! I stand corrected 😁
 

belladonna

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No he couldn't.

Arriving players are classed as "other players" in law.

8. Other players must :
c. Arrive at the tackle from the direction of their own goal line before
playing the ball.


This has nothing to do wth offside lines.

Phil, what's your opinion about the incident itself - was the Italian player part of the tackle and therefore couldn't have been tackled from behind? If so, what makes him part of the tackle, and where is this grounded in law/definitions?
 

Phil E


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Phil, what's your opinion about the incident itself - was the Italian player part of the tackle and therefore couldn't have been tackled from behind? If so, what makes him part of the tackle, and where is this grounded in law/definitions?

To me the law is quite clear. 14.9c says the player could not be tackled from the direction he was.

9. Any player who gains possession of the ball :
a. Must play it immediately, by moving away, or by passing or kicking the
ball.
b. Must remain on their feet, and not go to ground at or near the tackle
unless tackled by the opposition.
c. May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their
own goal line
.


Regarding the tackle area.
The tackle ends when the player with the ball moves away (Law 14.11b) but it doesn't say how far.
Move away is a phrase that is used frequently, but not defined.

The best thing we have is the definition of "Near" which is within one metre. This is used as below.

14.8. Other players must :
d. Not play the ball or attempt to tackle an opponent while on the ground
near the tackle.


14.9. Any player who gains possession of the ball :
b. Must remain on their feet, and not go to ground at or near the tackle
unless tackled by the opposition.


Taking that in mind it is my own opinion that you have moved away if you are no longer near.
 

belladonna

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To me the law is quite clear. 14.9c says the player could not be tackled from the direction he was.

9. Any player who gains possession of the ball :
a. Must play it immediately, by moving away, or by passing or kicking the
ball.
b. Must remain on their feet, and not go to ground at or near the tackle
unless tackled by the opposition.
c. May be tackled, provided the tackler does so from the direction of their
own goal line
.


Regarding the tackle area.
The tackle ends when the player with the ball moves away (Law 14.11b) but it doesn't say how far.
Move away is a phrase that is used frequently, but not defined.

The best thing we have is the definition of "Near" which is within one metre. This is used as below.

14.8. Other players must :
d. Not play the ball or attempt to tackle an opponent while on the ground
near the tackle.


14.9. Any player who gains possession of the ball :
b. Must remain on their feet, and not go to ground at or near the tackle
unless tackled by the opposition.


Taking that in mind it is my own opinion that you have moved away if you are no longer near.
Thanks Phil - very clear 😊

A follow-up question: once the player has moved away from the tackle (or if the ball has moved away from the tackle and is then played) can the player then be tackled by an opponent from behind, or are they still protected by 14.9.c?
 

chbg


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Regrettably there was more and it has been reported. Obviously can't share details at this stage (not sure if I'm allowed to share after it is closed?).
Bump.

Had an age group coach blaming me for his team losing the match in a quick 15 sec one-to-one exchange without any foul language. Actually I probably would have let it go, but (a) it was an experienced coach of other, high level adult teams, (b) it was typical quietly bullying attitude, (c) I had an audio recording of exactly what he said; and (d) I therefore had proof that it was within 15 secs of the final whistle! Big No No. He had not been bothered when I told him that I had a recording: "send it to the RFU". Although the situation didn't really phase me, I was more concerned about how other, younger referees would feel. So I did report it. Turns out that he had already been warned about his behaviour this season (which of course I didn't know). He may not be doing the match day coaching that he expects in the near future!

Don't let standards slip. An absolutely one-off incident can be dealt with appropriately. But if nothing is reported, then nothing will prevent a further worse incident (as I learnt last season).
 

Dickie E


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A follow-up question: once the player has moved away from the tackle (or if the ball has moved away from the tackle and is then played) can the player then be tackled by an opponent from behind, or are they still protected by 14.9.c?
I'd be of the view that the player can't be tackled by a retiring opponent until the retiring opponent has been put onside (refer law 14.10).

So the next question is: how can the retiring opponent be put onside? Is the answer in law 10.6 & 10.7 or somewhere else?
 

Dickie E


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Just out of interest, where does this "tackle area" come from? I can't find a reference for it in either Law 14, or the Definitions. T
law 14.11 (c) refers to the "tackle area"
 

Stu10


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A follow-up question: once the player has moved away from the tackle (or if the ball has moved away from the tackle and is then played) can the player then be tackled by an opponent from behind, or are they still protected by 14.9.c?
I've been wondering about this too. Does Law 10.7 apply?

Law 10.7
Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.
b. An opponent of that player:
1) Carries the ball five metres; or
2) Passes the ball; or
3) Kicks the ball; or
4) Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.


Honestly, it shouldn't be this difficult :rolleyes: 🤣 Who would choose to be a rugby ref?!? 😜
 

Rich_NL

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I've been wondering about this too. Does Law 10.7 apply?

Law 10.7
Other than under Law 10.4c, an offside player can be put onside when:
a. An onside team-mate of that player moves past the offside player and is within or has re-entered the playing area.
b. An opponent of that player:
1) Carries the ball five metres; or
2) Passes the ball; or
3) Kicks the ball; or
4) Intentionally touches the ball without gaining possession of it.


Honestly, it shouldn't be this difficult :rolleyes: 🤣 Who would choose to be a rugby ref?!? 😜

Law 10.7 applies explicitly to open play. 10.9 to 10.11 apply to ruck/maul/set piece offsides, so 4) isn't included there.

However, there's only offside to consider if there was a tackle with offside lines, a support player standing over the ball on the ground - which I'd assume is the same as ruck conditions. If the tackle is made and the ball is popped back 3m (i.e. away from the tackle area) to a supporting player, no-one is offside and that player can be tackled from any direction.

In the Italy-Wales case, red 10's tackle happened on top of the previous tackle, so I'd be going with penalty try.
 

crossref


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I know referees make mistakes and miss things ... God knows I've had my share.

But for the ref & TMO to talk about 'no ruck being formed' and completely (apparently) be unaware of Law 14 requirements is astounding
That is the MO teams key failing.
 

didds

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He may not be doing the match day coaching that he expects in the near future!
No... but it won't prevent him form watching drom the stands and accosting you after vtyhe final whilstle within seconds !

:-(
 
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