Counter Rucker Options?

[Chogan]

Bless your heart. I ****ing hate it

:biggrin: Ha ha. I enjoyed that.

 

[ddjamo]

The point dear chaps is that if they are in an offside possition as the ruck ends, just because the offside lines disappear it doesnt put them onside! Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

I again agree 100% and it's exactly my standard.

 

[Davet]

what is an objective example of the instant when the ball is out of the ruck that the majority of officials would agree on?

Well you could try the one that has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread.

It's out when it is clear of the ruck.

After all - that's what the Law says.

 

[Ian_Cook]

...if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside...

I again agree 100% and it's exactly my standard.

....and if you penalise this player, you ARE wrong, you ARE making up your own Laws, and you are punishing a player who is sharp enough and quick enough to know that he is operating within the Laws of the game.

You are effectively, punishing excellence.

 

[Dickie E]

Geez, I'm a goose. Here you guys were talking about a ruck offence and, out of the blue, I start talking about offside offences with an expectation that you can read my mind. I'll try harder next time.

Yes but he had better be....

1. onside, or was onside at the time the ruck ended if he was not a participant in the ruck, and

2. on his feet whether or not he was a participant in the ruck

Fixed

 

[Ian_Cook]

Fixed

Offside at the ruck IS a ruck defence.

It appears that YOU are the goose!

 

[Dixie]

The point dear chaps is that if they are in an offside possition as the ruck ends, just because the offside lines disappear it doesnt put them onside! Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

I again agree 100% and it's exactly my standard.

Ok - let's explore that a bit. Red tackles Blue on the halfway line. Ruck forms. Blue 8 arrives at the ruck and joins it legally. He is bound and drives progressively through the centre; as he reaches the middle of the ruck, still bound with both arms and utterly legal, Red ruckers start to load the ruck on the left side, pulling it slightly laterally. To compensate, the three ruckers to Blue 8's left leave the ruck and get aroudn the back, leaving Blue 8 half way up the ruck on the side, legally bound with his right arm. Immediately, the Red #9 lifts the ball clear of the last foot of the ruck, and taking a step back, he slips and falls to ground. Quick as a flash, Blue 8 releases his bind and competes for the ball. Womble and ddjamo ping him for .... what, exactly?

 

[ddjamo]

play on....nice attempt but not the same scenario...

 

[Dixie]

play on....nice attempt but not the same scenario...

Confused then. You agreed 100% with this:

but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside

That is 100% my scenario, which you now say is totally different. So you have 100% agreement and 100%$ disagreement with exactly the same point. That isn't sitting on the fence - that's occupying the ground either side of it! Can you clarify exactly where you do stand?

 

[ddjamo]

the ruck is not there to allow the opposition the right to sneak up and play the 9 as he distributes the ball eg - slap arm, etc. with today's "rucks" there is often no protection for the 9 due to the nature of the beast. we are there to provide space, quick ball and an exciting match. playing the 9 from an offside position/from the ruck/in front of the last foot "AS" the ball is coming out is contrary to what we are trying to accomplish. we can open another can about all of the flash points that occur when you have everyone grabbing at the sh's the entire match. keep the rucks on their feet and it's a different story...but I don't see that happening any time soon.

that's the way I see it, the way I referee, the way I am coached to referee so not really much you can say to change me mind m8. sometimes common sense overrides definition - but I'm not convinced that I'm not correct in law either.

 

[Womble]

the ruck is not there to allow the opposition the right to sneak up and play the 9 as he distributes the ball eg - slap arm, etc. with today's "rucks" there is often no protection for the 9 due to the nature of the beast. we are there to provide space, quick ball and an exciting match. playing the 9 from an offside position/from the ruck/in front of the last foot "AS" the ball is coming out is contrary to what we are trying to accomplish. we can open another can about all of the flash points that occur when you have everyone grabbing at the sh's the entire match. keep the rucks on their feet and it's a different story...but I don't see that happening any time soon.

that's the way I see it, the way I referee, the way I am coached to referee so not really much you can say to change me mind m8. sometimes common sense overrides definition - but I'm not convinced that I'm not correct in law either.

100% agree

 

[Dixie]

playing the 9 from an offside position/from the ruck/in front of the last foot "AS" the ball is coming out is contrary to what we are trying to accomplish.

Ah well, you've introduced a wholly different element there. The discussion to date (except for an irrelevant meander by a few who had misread the scenario) has been about whether it's legal for an ex-rucker to impinge on the #9 AFTER the ball is clearly out and the ruck is over. You now want to limit your answer to the situation in which it is not certain whether or not the ruck persists. For clarity, in the limited situation where it is not clear that the ruck has ended, I agree with you. How do you feel about the situation in which the ruck absolutely HAS ended, we are in open play, and an onside player tries to engage a ball carrier close to what used to be a ruck?

 

[ddjamo]

I have to leave...I'll let womble respond if he wants....

 

[ddjamo]

dixie: my description above is based on "AS the ball is coming out." your question is after the ball is clearly out. totally different question and I don't think there is an issue there. oneball said "as" and I said "as." I appreciate your passion for law, your disdain for americans and your appreciation of a good debate - but I don't think we differ here.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ah well, you've introduced a wholly different element there. The discussion to date (except for an irrelevant meander by a few who had misread the scenario) has been about whether it's legal for an ex-rucker to impinge on the #9 AFTER the ball is clearly out and the ruck is over. You now want to limit your answer to the situation in which it is not certain whether or not the ruck persists. For clarity, in the limited situation where it is not clear that the ruck has ended, I agree with you. How do you feel about the situation in which the ruck absolutely HAS ended, we are in open play, and an onside player tries to engage a ball carrier close to what used to be a ruck?

FFS, this is "Rucking 101", a fundamental of ruck play; a player bound into or onto a ruck is NOT offside, by any definition in the Laws!

An offside player is never allowed to take part in play, yet clearly, a player bound to the side of the ruck, can continue to ruck and continue to try to win possession for his team.

A player fully and legally bound into or onto a ruck in which the opposition has won the ball cannot suddenly become offside when the ruck ends. Immediately the ruck ends, he is allowed to move forward towards the ball or the ball carrier, and continue to take part in play.

You are right Dixe, and Womble are ddjamo are wrong.

 

[Dickie E]

Nostradamus: 297 post debate on definition of "as the ball is coming out" :biggrin:

 

[Dixie]

I appreciate your ... your disdain for americans

I have no disdain for Americans - particularly at Thanksgiving. I've spent the last 19 years working for Arthur Andersen and GE; hardly the record of an Anti-Yankee!

 

[ddjamo]

my bad dixie...wrong guy

 

[ddjamo]

Ian has ruled everyone. make note of it.

View attachment 2477

 

[Phil E]

An offside player is never allowed to take part in play, yet clearly, a player bound to the side of the ruck, can continue to ruck and continue to try to win possession for his team.

I wouldn't be happy with a player sliding up the side of a ruck.