Counter Rucker Options?

[Womble]

The offside line is rear feet of the ruck so once the ruck ends, anyone infront of the offside line is in an offside position. Simples...

 

[OB..]

The offside line is rear feet of the ruck so once the ruck ends, anyone infront of the offside line is in an offside position. Simples...

So everybody in the ruck is offside?

I think you mean that if a player was offside before the ruck ended, he is still offside when it ends.

 

[crossref]

when a ruck ends, pedantcially I suppose all the team mates of the SH with the ball are offside in general play, and causing an obstruction.
but clearly the Laws aren't meant to work like that.

 

[ddjamo]

The offside line is rear feet of the ruck so once the ruck ends, anyone infront of the offside line is in an offside position. Simples...

agree 100%.

 

[SimonSmith]

It's been a long time since we dragged out the USA GMG:

A. Ruck1. The ball is out when there are no bodies over the ball from a bird’s eye view.
2. Whilst the competition for the ball in a ruck is ongoing, hands by players in the
ruck, are NOT allowed. PK
3. Once the ball has been clearly won, pushing the ball back by using the hand,
by a player of the team that have won possession of the ball is permissible,
AND, digging for the ball, by the player of the team who has won possession
of the ball, who is in the scrumhalf position and not part of the ruck, is
permissible and the BALL IS NOT OUT.
4. If a player in the scrum half position is not retrieving (digging for) the ball, but
holding the ball, with one or two hands, the BALL IS OUT.
5. Players in the ruck may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the
scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK

The bible in America. Comments about applicability to how the rest of the world works not welcome

 

[Chogan]

It's been a long time since we dragged out the USA GMG:


The bible in America. Comments about applicability to how the rest of the world works not welcome

I like it.

 

[Davet]

Simon,

Well, you chose to go there, but anyway, you have my deep sympathy.

 

[crossref]

It's been a long time since we dragged out the USA GMG:


The bible in America. Comments about applicability to how the rest of the world works not welcome

I would love it if the IRB would come out with somethnig clear and unequivocal like that.

 

[Womble]

I would love it if the IRB would come out with somethnig clear and unequivocal like that.

Book your flights! Over the pond it is for you then .

 

[Taff]

The offside line is rear feet of the ruck so once the ruck ends, anyone infront of the offside line is in an offside position. Simples...

Once the ruck ends, there are no offside lines anymore. Unless as OB implies you're referring to lazy runners. Players particpating (and bound into) in the ruck can't be offside.

 

[Davet]

I would love it if the IRB would come out with somethnig clear and unequivocal like that.

Well - yes, but different.... It would be far better if the guidance was actually correct, rather than merely detailed.

 

[Davet]

Players particpating (and bound into) in the ruck can't be offside.

Not while the ruck is in progress.

After the ruck is finished, and we have Open Play - then if such players are now in front of the player on their team who has the ball, then what else are they?

They must not take part in the game nor may they move forward, until they are played onside.

But that doesn't mean pinging them for obstruction just because, like a mountain, they are there

 

[Taff]

... After the ruck is finished, and we have Open Play - then if such players are now in front of the player on their team who has the ball, then what else are they?

Yes, but you could say that about mauls, LOs and scrums too. I'm not clear what point Womble was trying to make.

 

[Dixie]

I'm not clear what point Womble was trying to make.

I think he was having a Great Uncle Bulgaria moment.

 

[Womble]

The point dear chaps is that if they are in an offside possition as the ruck ends, just because the offside lines disappear it doesnt put them onside! Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

 

[Taff]

... Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

But they were either legally part of the ruck or they weren't. Someone has to be the side of the ruck.

If they were not part of the ruck (eg not bound on properly) then they are in front of the hindmost foot ie offside.

If they were bound on to the ruck (ie not offside) then as long as the ball is clear of the ruck (ie not just "hands on") why can't they tackle the SH?

 

[SimonSmith]

I like it.

Bless your heart. I ****ing hate it

 

[Ian_Cook]

The point dear chaps is that if they are in an offside possition as the ruck ends, just because the offside lines disappear it doesnt put them onside! Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

Then you would be wrong in Law.

Forget the earlier talk about offside in general play. Its true, but irrelevant to this discussion. We are only talking about Ruck Offside - Law 16.5 - and only about those players who are members of the side not in possession when the ruck ends.

Such a player bound into the ruck cannot be offside at the ruck even though he might be technically ahead of the hindmost foot. He is not entitled to grab the SH and pull him into the ruck before the ruck ends, however, once it does end, he is entitled to immediately take part in play. If he is on his feet and he can tackle the ball carrier, slap the ball out of the ball carrier's hands (provided it doesn't go forward) and do all the other things that an onside player can do.

A player is offside at the ruck when they are not a participant in the ruck, and are ahead of the hindmost foot. This can happen when they are simply standing beside the ruck not bound to it (offside pillar), still retiring when the ruck ends (lazy runner) or if they detach before the ruck ends. In all cases, those players remain offside even after the ruck ends. They cannot take part in play at all until they are made onside...

[LAWS]11.8 PUTTING ONSIDE A PLAYER RETIRING DURING A RUCK, MAUL, SCRUM OR LINEOUT
When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player’s team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:

Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.[/LAWS]

 

[Dixie]

The point dear chaps is that if they are in an offside possition as the ruck ends, just because the offside lines disappear it doesnt put them onside! Whilst bound in they are fine but IMO if they were bound to the side of the ruck (infront of the back foot) and advanced and tackled the SH as the ball leaves the ruck I would call them offside.... (light blue touch paper and wait}

But they were either legally part of the ruck or they weren't. Someone has to be the side of the ruck.

If they were not part of the ruck (eg not bound on properly) then they are in front of the hindmost foot ie offside.

If they were bound on to the ruck (ie not offside) then as long as the ball is clear of the ruck (ie not just "hands on") why can't they tackle the SH?

+1 :clap:

 

[jdeagro]

Well, I didn't expect such a debate to result from my questions but interesting read indeed.

I think Ian_Cook answered my question adequately enough. Thank you for that.

In a different regard, since my previous description to objectively describe when the ball is out of the ruck was not an adequate example according to Davet; what is an objective example of the instant when the ball is out of the ruck that the majority of officials would agree on?

Thanks.