Deliberate knock forward Vs juggle

crossref


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So this is an interesting one


Re Marchant's first touch.

Is that
11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

Or is that
11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession
 

tim White


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As this is in the Knock-On section of the laws; the ball did not touch the floor so NO knock-on.

However, we know you cannot pass the ball to yourself over the head of an opponent and re-catch it; where do we draw the line?

To me he knocked the ball infield to avoid the touch line, clearly not an attempt to gain any other advantage, and he caught the ball again so no knock-on.

Try for me.
 

crossref


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What I think makes this one interesting is that his first touch was NOT an attempt to catch it (had he caught it, he would have carried it into touch in goal) so it was a deliberate knock forward, with the intention of catching it after
 

Balones

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Deliberate knock-on for me. Opens a can of worms.
 

Phil E


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My first instinct (rightly of wrongly) was a deliberate knock forward.

But I could argue for and against, probably needs clarification.
 

Balones

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My first instinct (rightly of wrongly) was a deliberate knock forward.

But I could argue for and against, probably needs clarification.
I would say it definitely needs clarification. Preferably from WR.
 

smeagol


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Can't find the clip on YouTube, is there one somewhere that's not geo-locked?
 

Decorily

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Illegal act as far as I'm concerned and clearly material.
 

crossref


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Can't find the clip on YouTube, is there one somewhere that's not geo-locked?
so it's a cross-kick, that bounces twice and the ball is headed for TIG
Marchant is running for it, he reaches the ball before it crosses the plane, but if he were to catch it, his momentum would take him into TIG
So be bats the ball forward, runs over the TIG line, gets back into the in-goal and catches the ball, and touches down for a try.

nice bit of skill.
 

Stu10

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Definition:

Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

He caught it before the ball touched the ground or another player, so not a knock on, deliberate or otherwise.

One might argue that law 11.3 says "knock the ball forward" rather than knock-on, but the related law 11.4 makes it clear (IMHO) that both 11.3 and 11.4 are referring to an intentional knock-on... which takes us back to the definition of a knock-on.

I also don't think Marchant committed a forward pass to himself because I don't believe his first play constituted having possession of the ball, but others might disagree with my opinion here.

Law 11.7
A player must not intentionally throw or pass the ball forward. Sanction: Penalty.

Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.
Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
 

didds

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If that isn't a deliberate knock-forward I really don't know what is.
 

Stu10

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If that isn't a deliberate knock-forward I really don't know what is.
However, it only becomes a knock-on if it hits the ground or another player.

Taking this forward, had he not gathered that ball before it hit the ground, would the ref have awarded a scrum or penalty?

Similarly, if a player goes for an interception and initially gets a hand on the ball in-flight, knocks it up and forward and then gathers it, do you play on or deliberate knock-on?
 

Volun-selected


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Bit of a lardy gif but hopefully helps those who are geolocked to get the context of this and can decide which side of stunning try / blatant foul play you’re on.
 

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didds

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However, it only becomes a knock-on if it hits the ground or another player.
That is why I didn't use the term "knock-on".

If we are going to paint a a person with the whistle in a corner with the thing about that terminology being in the knock-on section, then that's an open door to any forward throw as long as it never hits the ground or another player.

Its a deliberate knock forward. Throw forward if you prefer.
 

Rich_NL

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We allow interceptions where the ball is knocked forward and regathered in attempting to bring it under control
We wouldn't want someone running up to the defensive line, throwing it over and then catching it the other side, though.

Pending clarification, I'd see this more in line with "controlling a wild ball" and allow the play on; we try to encourage live ball and open play, and intentional knock down is mostly a problem because you kill that off, no?
 

didds

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so were slade's actions deliberate?


Id suggest the only interpretation for Marchant's actions in the OP is that they were.
 

Ian_Cook


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We allow interceptions where the ball is knocked forward and regathered in attempting to bring it under control

We wouldn't want someone running up to the defensive line, throwing it over and then catching it the other side, though.

Pending clarification, I'd see this more in line with "controlling a wild ball" and allow the play on; we try to encourage live ball and open play, and intentional knock down is mostly a problem because you kill that off, no?

You mean like this?

 

didds

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presumably not as he passed backwards to himself. not forwards. And the ball didnt pass over an opponents head, but a team mate's.
 
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