[Law] deliberate knock up

[Marc Wakeham]

How can it be wrong to disallow attempted interceptions that pay off? If It's is gathered before it hits the ground or another payer then good luck I say.

It might be ugly if the percentages tend towards more failures than success but at least there is a sanction if it doesn't pay off.

he is not attempting to catch the ball (interception) he is deliberately knocking the ball forward PK for me.

 

[Phil E]

If you allow this, where do you draw the line?

If next time he punches it 10 feet in the air and 10 feet forward, then runs forward and catches it, is that ok as well?

 

[menace]

If you allow this, where do you draw the line?

If next time he punches it 10 feet in the air and 10 feet forward, then runs forward and catches it, is that ok as well?

are you talking "generally" - or this specific example?

I must say I always considered you (and OB) as having a great feel for the game (empathy and all that), even though I've never seen you referee, but simply by your level headed approach to the application of the laws. So I'm quite surprised you wouldn't allow this specific example and play on??
For me it was such a sh!t and speculative pop by the attacking player that the defender had no choice but to have a crack at the looping ball to gain possession - and I'm struggling to see how you think the attacking team should be rewarded and the defending team penalised?

next minute you'll be penalising the SH for hands in the ruck when he's diging it out! :wink::wink::biggrin:

 

[ChuckieB]

Where do you draw the line?

Ugly and cynical if it doesn't pay off?
Brilliant and opportunistic if it does?

in the absence of absolute clarity to laws on intentional knock forwards, ones that don't touch the ground, I think you have to go with the defender being entitled to contest possession ('attempting to bring it under control').

Unless we start to see such plays penalised at these high levels, it would be hard to justify penalising them elsewhere.

 

[OB..]

You didn't answer my question

If the player failed to gather the intentional knock forward, would you award a PK?

For me it was such a sh!t and speculative pop by the attacking player that the defender had no choice but to have a crack at the looping ball to gain possession - and I'm struggling to see how you think the attacking team should be rewarded and the defending team penalised?

I think you are posing the wrong question. The defending team does not have the right to take advantage of an attacking error by doing something illegal.

Some years ago there was a guideline that any one-handed attempt at an intercept that went forward should be treated as a deliberate knock forward - presumably with the idea that a single handed-interception was impossible. After a while that was dropped, perhaps because it was thought to be going too far. Your idea that deliberately knocking the ball forward so as to (hopefully) regain possession should be allowed also goes too far and sets a difficult precedent.

There will be occasions when a single handed effort going forward could be seen as accidental, but this was not one such.

 

[Phil E]

are you talking "generally" - or this specific example?

I must say I always considered you (and OB) as having a great feel for the game (empathy and all that), even though I've never seen you referee, but simply by your level headed approach to the application of the laws. So I'm quite surprised you wouldn't allow this specific example and play on??
For me it was such a sh!t and speculative pop by the attacking player that the defender had no choice but to have a crack at the looping ball to gain possession - and I'm struggling to see how you think the attacking team should be rewarded and the defending team penalised?

next minute you'll be penalising the SH for hands in the ruck when he's diging it out! :wink::wink::biggrin:

Both

There is a big difference between trying to catch/intercept the ball and speculatively knocking it forward in the hope of being able to catch it. This is a deliberate knock forward that is caught, not a genuine attempt to catch that is fumbled forward.

Like I said where do you draw the line? The natural extension of this is a throw forward that is caught by the thrower. I don't want to start down that road.

Ironically OB and I seem to be of the same mind on this one.

 

[menace]

Thats why I mentioned both of you! :wink:

It could easily be argued that in the OP it was an intercept...and under WR protocols for deliberate knock down can apply such that it's play on if the player is in a realistic position to regather. In the OP he did. (Risk vs reward as alresdy mentioned by other). If he didnt regather then I agree he would have been in looking at a YC.

 

[OB..]

If he didnt regather then I agree he would have been in looking at a YC.

It is generally agreed that a player trying to get control of the ball can be tackled even if not actually touching the ball at the time. If a player who deliberately knocks forward in an attempt to regain the ball gets tackled, then presumably that is legal and he gets a YC.

I do not want to encourage that sort of scenario.

 

[didds]

Unless we start to see such plays penalised at these high levels, it would be hard to justify penalising them elsewhere.

So are squint feeds at scrums and bodies on the floor at rucks to no longer be pinged at community cos they've abandoned that at elite?
ie community to fall in line with elite reffing ?

didds

didds

 

[Phil E]

So out of interest I showed this video to a number of non referee people at Tigers.
Players, coaches and media types. People with a vast knowledge of rugby.

They almost universally thought this was a deliberate knock on and shouldn't be allowed.

I only mention this because I like to get a feel for what rugby people think about things verses referees.

 

[crossref]

Isn't that in accordance with this thread ?
Almost everyone saying it is a deliberate KO

 

[thepercy]

It is generally agreed that a player trying to get control of the ball can be tackled even if not actually touching the ball at the time. If a player who deliberately knocks forward in an attempt to regain the ball gets tackled, then presumably that is legal and he gets a YC.

I do not want to encourage that sort of scenario.

100% This. But I don't hate it like you do.

The team not in (juggling) possession have a remedy, they can tackle the speculative interceptor, and gain a PK and possible YC. Surely this will discourage the practice enough, but allow for it if successful.

 

[menace]

So out of interest I showed this video to a number of non referee people at Tigers.
Players, coaches and media types. People with a vast knowledge of rugby.

They almost universally thought this was a deliberate knock on and shouldn't be allowed.

I only mention this because I like to get a feel for what rugby people think about things verses referees.

"Almost universilly"??...is that like "almost pregnant"??? :biggrin:
So just as divided here then I take it?

 

[menace]

Isn't that in accordance with this thread ?
Almost everyone saying it is a deliberate KO

Sort of but with a twist (as I see the arguments).
Even I agree it was a deliberate knock on ...but IMO not a ko cause it was regathered and so permitted.

Others saying it is more akin to a deliberate "throw" forward to himself (over the defence).

 

[Dickie E]

I'm OK with it. You see similar all the time. SH passes a shocker to the #10 who knocks it up so that he can catch it.

 

[crossref]

I only mention this because I like to get a feel for what rugby people think about things verses referees.

you should ask all the same people whether or not you have to let em up...

 

[OB..]

100% This. But I don't hate it like you do.

The team not in (juggling) possession have a remedy, they can tackle the speculative interceptor, and gain a PK and possible YC. Surely this will discourage the practice enough, but allow for it if successful.

Currently the instinctive reaction of most players is not to tackle a player who does not physically have possession. If the knocking-up interception becomes prevalent they may learn to overcome their instinct, but I would much prefer to avoid such a development by simply not allowing the technique. We may be able to train players but I hold out little hope for training spectators.

 

[Arabcheif]

I know I'm late to this party. I've been offline for a while (recovering from a broken arm lol).

D'you know what guys, yes, it's a deliberate knock "up," but it's not a throw forward and it's not a knock on as it doesn't hot the ground/other player(s). There's nothing prohibiting this in the LoTG that I can see, using the Definitions too. I'd allow it, if he get tackled while Juggling he gets tackled.

Then peep, knock on and give the YC for a deliberate KO.

 

[OB..]

I know I'm late to this party. I've been offline for a while (recovering from a broken arm lol).

D'you know what guys, yes, it's a deliberate knock "up," but it's not a throw forward and it's not a knock on as it doesn't hot the ground/other player(s). There's nothing prohibiting this in the LoTG that I can see, using the Definitions too. I'd allow it, if he get tackled while Juggling he gets tackled.

Then peep, knock on and give the YC for a deliberate KO.

[LAWS]11.3 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Sanction: [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Penalty.[/FONT][/LAWS]

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Arabcheif]

Hmmmm I take your point, but given we see it happen in matches all the time at higher levels and refs allow it, it'd be a hard sell. Would basically do away with interceptions. These are exciting to watch when they happen.